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Can we get a book that shows us how to use the Street Grimoire?

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Zar

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« on: (09:07:57/11-07-14) »
This is sort of a jibe but I would really like to have more information on Creating a Magic Group, keep it maintained, and how it benefits the Initiate.  This should include adept Initiates as well.

I also would like to know how to use special reagents like Orichalcum in a way where spending 60000 credits on making it is worth it.

MijRai

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« Reply #1 on: (11:36:37/11-07-14) »
As far as the second question goes...  There isn't.  And Shadow Spells says orichalcum is now 140k nuyen, at that, so there are disagreements in the books as-is.  While the books say there are now radical and refined reagents, there's literally no reason to use them whatsoever, given the lack of anything to do with them.  It says they help with enchanting, but not how. 
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?

JackVII

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« Reply #2 on: (11:40:37/11-07-14) »
While the books say there are now radical and refined reagents, there's literally no reason to use them whatsoever, given the lack of anything to do with them.  It says they help with enchanting, but not how.
The descriptions of some of the new alchemical items indicates when you're required to use radical or refined reagents to produce them. I wouldn't, however, suggest that is a significant enough reason to add them.
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Namikaze

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« Reply #3 on: (12:00:56/11-07-14) »
First off Zar, this should be in the Rules section.

Second, I spoke with Giabraltar, one of the developers, about this exact topic in a PM conversation.  I will provide his proposed rules that provide more information on alchemy, reagents, etc.  Note that these are not official rules.

Shadow Spells included prices for buying the different Reagents, where Street Grimoire left you solely with the base costs for the creation process.
I got the price and availability list into Shadow Spells, because there was assumptions where they would have gone in Street Grimoire and it didnít come to pass.

More Usefulness to Alchemy (Orichalcum and Advanced Reagents)
For me there was two reasons why there wasnít any rules around orichalcum and advanced reagents. 1. For my chapters I went way beyond my word count so I was hoping to defer the rules to the artificing chapter.  2. Things happened. And you can see there is some things lacking in Street Grimoire.

Iíll Preface this with ďThese are not Official Rules in Shadowrun 5th EditionĒ  but hereís my proposed rules if you would like to playtest them in your games. Always looking for feedback (Iím the only magician in my game at this point).

REAGENTS USED WITH MAGIC
Per Dram
Raw reagents
Reduce drain by 1 for rituals
Raise the limit by 1 for all magical tests.
Create temporary Ritual Circle (SR5 p. XX)
Refined reagents
Reduces drain by 2 per dram for alchemy
Raises limit by 5 per dram for all magical tests.
Create Magical Compounds (SG p.219)
Create Radical Reagents (SG p.210)
Radical Reagents
Reduces drain by 2 for artificing
Reduce object resistance/opposed force by 2 per dram for rituals or alchemy.
Adds 1 additional service when summoning a spirit (Max 1)*
Adds 1 additional service when bonding a spirit (Max magicianís Magic rating)*.
No Force limit for all magical tests.
Reducing Spirit Index (SG p.207)
Create Orichalcum (SG p.210)
Create Fetish (SG p.212)
Create Inanimate Vessel (SG p.214)

*Note that if the magician gets no services in the test, then the additional services are lost.
Orichalcum
No Force limit for all magical tests AND one of the following:
Reduces object resistance/opposed force by 2 per dram in artificing and conjuring.
Increase Magic rating by 5 when calculating effect with the use of sorcery.
Doubles the # of services achieved when summoning or bonding a spirit

Bone Reagent
With the sacrifice of a victim, a magician can condense the very essence of the subject into a bone. Itís a powerful reagent that resists being created (Same as resistance with a living vessel preparation). IF successful, a bone reagentís potency is equal to the essence (round down) of the subject. Creation of a focus with a bone reagent, reduces the drain by the potency value. Bone Reagents are special and arenít recommended for use with mere sorcery, conjuring, or alchemy. Such uses do allow for the potency to reduce drain, but it incurs a witchís mark (SG p.XX) plus more. A disenchanted focus containing a bone reagent does not destroy the reagent. While physical damage can destroy it, the magic it contains becomes a haunt (SG p.XX) that can last for months or years. A proper way to dispose of a bone reagent is with grave binding ritual (force equal to the potency of the bone reagent). This releases the contained essence.

Max Limit to # of reagents used
Excluding raw, a magician can only add up to his magic rating in reagents of any combination in a given magical project. Also remember that all reagents are consumed at the success or failure of the magical project.
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Zar

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« Reply #4 on: (14:49:22/11-07-14) »
I put it in this thread because those are just two examples.  I really think there should be a companion to the Street Grimoire with everything that was cut out of the first as well as anything new that wasn't included.  We can open a new thread in House rules to discuss how we can fix the book as a community.

Top Dog

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« Reply #5 on: (15:08:52/11-07-14) »
And Shadow Spells says orichalcum is now 140k nuyen, at that, so there are disagreements in the books as-is.
Street Grimoire never actually gives costs for reagents does it? People calculated it depending on the cost of the components, I believe. But that assumed the labor didn't cost anything and ignored the chance of failure.

Doesn't make them any more useful though. I like how Orichalcum is "often" used in magical transactions, in 1-dram doses. How often do people buy magical goods priced in 140000• increments?

MijRai

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« Reply #6 on: (15:23:01/11-07-14) »
And Shadow Spells says orichalcum is now 140k nuyen, at that, so there are disagreements in the books as-is.
Street Grimoire never actually gives costs for reagents does it? People calculated it depending on the cost of the components, I believe. But that assumed the labor didn't cost anything and ignored the chance of failure.

Doesn't make them any more useful though. I like how Orichalcum is "often" used in magical transactions, in 1-dram doses. How often do people buy magical goods priced in 140000• increments?

Rich magicians trading for high-level foci or artifacts and the like?  A dram of orichalcum could come out to a private tutorship for a couple of spells too.  Main problem isn't the value, but the size increment. 
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?

Zar

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« Reply #7 on: (16:23:31/11-07-14) »
I really don't want my players spending 60000 in reagents and making 140000 on selling them. 

Top Dog

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« Reply #8 on: (16:37:29/11-07-14) »
Since when do players ever sell stuff at 100% market value? Plus if they glitch their investment is worthless (also they become insane).

8-bit

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« Reply #9 on: (17:24:00/11-07-14) »
Since when do players ever sell stuff at 100% market value? Plus if they glitch their investment is worthless (also they become insane).

I would have started with the insanity, rather than the investment part. That one always seemed slightly more problematic to me.
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Lucean

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« Reply #10 on: (01:46:40/11-10-14) »
In SR4 you could create money with Alchemy :)

The proposed use of Orichalcum sounds interesting. Since it removes the limit and you can reduce the opposed dice pool you can finally create foci at the destined force levels. Granted, it's really expensive, but at least there is a way now.

Well ... thinking about it more, I don't think that you can entice an artificer with at least a minimum of understanding about math to waste about 35,000 resale value on crafting, when he can just buy a lot of foci at less cost :(

Zar

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« Reply #11 on: (12:17:16/11-12-14) »
Why wouldn't an alchemist just focus on making Orichalcum for a living.  130% profit is worth the time and effort

8-bit

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« Reply #12 on: (12:23:24/11-12-14) »
Why wouldn't an alchemist just focus on making Orichalcum for a living.  130% profit is worth the time and effort

Quote from: Street Grimoire; page 210
At the end of the circulation, the magician must make an Alchemy + Magic [Astral] (3) Test. Failure to meet the threshold of this test consumes the reagents but results in alchemical slag (unusable for magic purposes). Success produces one dram of orichalcum. With a failure, the magician must make a Body + Magic (3) Test to resist the detrimental effects of radical lead vapors. Failing this test means the character suffers the occasional effects of disorientation (p. 409, SR5) from hallucinations. Each net deficit results in eight hours of hallucinations. This disorientation isnít continuous, but it occurs during stressful or long events in that time period; exactly how this madness plays out is up to the gamemaster. Every subsequent failure to create orichalcum permanently adds an additional eight hours to the next orichalcum-creation failure. This represents the slow spiral into alchemical madness.

So, yeah, insanity is kind of a thing. Not to mention that if you fail, you lose 60,000 nuyen worth of material. You also need an initial 60,000 nuyen to start with. The profit is not guaranteed, and failure has much more dire consequences besides just losing money (although you do lose a lot of money if you fail).
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Csjarrat

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« Reply #13 on: (12:59:48/11-12-14) »
lol, better save some EDG for that roll then!
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