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Questions : Assist (Abilities + Damage) and Karma penalty

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Jamelfr

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« on: (01:16:35/09-25-14) »
I am sure the answers can be implied from the rulebook, but I just want to be sure :

1. There are cards with Assist texts, for example Covering Fire ("Choose an obstacle. It can't attack this turn, and Damage [ black ]") and Backdoor ("Cancel all abilities on one obstacle for the rest of the game, and Damage [ green ]"). When assisting another runner with that kind of card, can the obstacle affected with the ability ("cannot attack this turn") and the obstacle being damaged be two different obstacles?


2. In a mission, Karma award goes down if each runner' own karma is too high. According to the Crossfire mission card text, this is "based on how much Karma they have". But in the chart on the same mission card, it is written that if "Karma in upgrades" is 11-30, then there is -1 karma penalty (-2 if 31-50, etc.). This is confusing for me and I wonder which interpretation is correct in the following situation.

Let's say I have two 5-cost upgrades on a runner (in slot 1 and slot 2) and a karma total of 31. For the Karma penalty, does that count for :
a) 10 karma (counting only the 5-cost), so no penalty.
b) 20 karma (slot 1 upgrade has a value of 5, slot 2 value is 15), so -1 penalty
or c) 31 karma (total karma earned by the runner, even if not entirely used), so -2 penalty.

Namikaze

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« Reply #1 on: (02:28:30/09-25-14) »
I am sure the answers can be implied from the rulebook, but I just want to be sure :

1. There are cards with Assist texts, for example Covering Fire ("Choose an obstacle. It can't attack this turn, and Damage [ black ]") and Backdoor ("Cancel all abilities on one obstacle for the rest of the game, and Damage [ green ]"). When assisting another runner with that kind of card, can the obstacle affected with the ability ("cannot attack this turn") and the obstacle being damaged be two different obstacles?

That is a very good question - my gut instinct would say that they have to be one and the same, but I think we could use some clarity on this.

2. In a mission, Karma award goes down if each runner' own karma is too high. According to the Crossfire mission card text, this is "based on how much Karma they have". But in the chart on the same mission card, it is written that if "Karma in upgrades" is 11-30, then there is -1 karma penalty (-2 if 31-50, etc.). This is confusing for me and I wonder which interpretation is correct in the following situation.

Let's say I have two 5-cost upgrades on a runner (in slot 1 and slot 2) and a karma total of 31. For the Karma penalty, does that count for :
a) 10 karma (counting only the 5-cost), so no penalty.
b) 20 karma (slot 1 upgrade has a value of 5, slot 2 value is 15), so -1 penalty
or c) 31 karma (total karma earned by the runner, even if not entirely used), so -2 penalty.

I'm pretty sure this refers to total Karma.  I think the idea is that since you can apply a lot of your existing Karma to upgrades of the same type, you probably won't be hoarding Karma too much.  Probably there weren't a lot of people doing that kind of thing in testing.  Obviously this is just a guess though.
Feel free to keep any karma you earned illicitly, it's on us.

Quote from: Stephen Covey
Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.

Jamelfr

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« Reply #2 on: (20:22:38/09-25-14) »
Thank you for your thoughts. I am happy to see that I had valid questions about some rules. :)
 
About the Assist abilities, I've just re-read some parts of the rulebook and I found an example that might answer my first question. P. 25, about the Backdoor card and assist abilities in general : "When someone plays an assist ability, the current runner decides where the damage goes. The runner playing the assist makes decisions for all other effects; in this case, choosing the obstacle card that will have its abilities canceled."

So, I guess that this excerpt implies that obstacle damaged and obstacle affected by assist ability can be 2 different obstacles. That makes the Assist cards even more powerful than I thought, which is a good thing.  :)

I'm pretty sure this refers to total Karma.  I think the idea is that since you can apply a lot of your existing Karma to upgrades of the same type, you probably won't be hoarding Karma too much.  Probably there weren't a lot of people doing that kind of thing in testing.  Obviously this is just a guess though.

Well, I am hoarding Karma a little, indeed.  ;D  It's because I like the 5- and 20-cost upgrades but do not like the 10- and 15- upgrades. So after getting "+1 HP" and "+1 card in starting hand" (each 5-cost upgrades), I stick to those upgrades until I get enough karma for those 20-cost. In my situation (and if your interpretation is the correct one), that means that I would get penalties for 31+ karma even if my upgrades do not reflect this at all (and it restricts somehow the ways a player can build his runners).

There is a confusion on the mission card text. First, it is written that the penalty depends of the karma a runner have. Then, it is written that it depends of the "Karma in upgrades", which can be two different things as shown in my situation.

Namikaze

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« Reply #3 on: (22:07:12/09-25-14) »
About the Assist abilities, I've just re-read some parts of the rulebook and I found an example that might answer my first question. P. 25, about the Backdoor card and assist abilities in general : "When someone plays an assist ability, the current runner decides where the damage goes. The runner playing the assist makes decisions for all other effects; in this case, choosing the obstacle card that will have its abilities canceled."

So, I guess that this excerpt implies that obstacle damaged and obstacle affected by assist ability can be 2 different obstacles. That makes the Assist cards even more powerful than I thought, which is a good thing.  :)

Excellent find!  I think that does clear up the issue a lot.  And I agree that it makes the assist cards even more powerful than before.  They're definitely far more tactical now.

Well, I am hoarding Karma a little, indeed.  ;D  It's because I like the 5- and 20-cost upgrades but do not like the 10- and 15- upgrades. So after getting "+1 HP" and "+1 card in starting hand" (each 5-cost upgrades), I stick to those upgrades until I get enough karma for those 20-cost. In my situation (and if your interpretation is the correct one), that means that I would get penalties for 31+ karma even if my upgrades do not reflect this at all (and it restricts somehow the ways a player can build his runners).

That's a very valid point that I had not considered.  If a person has the Karma, it doesn't mean anything if they haven't spent the Karma.  Unused Karma just accumulates, so I think I'm going to change my opinion on this to say that the penalty should only apply to the Karma that has been spent.
Feel free to keep any karma you earned illicitly, it's on us.

Quote from: Stephen Covey
Most people do not listen with the intent to understand; they listen with the intent to reply.

Jamelfr

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« Reply #4 on: (21:48:47/09-26-14) »
Yeah, I also think that only spent Karma has to be considered in the penalty. But maybe a designer will come and tell us we are wrong. :)

If we are talking about spent Karma, I guess I should also add the +10 cost for slots 2,3 and 4. Then, two 5-karma upgrades on a single runner would mean 20 spent karma.

Shaidar

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« Reply #5 on: (06:40:44/11-17-14) »
However, you can replace existing abilities per paragraph 2 under Upgrades, specifically the bold text.

Alex Ender

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« Reply #6 on: (08:39:52/11-17-14) »
The answer to the Karma question has been answered in the FAQ.  It is total EARNED Karma so you are not grinding and hoarding.

Jamelfr

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« Reply #7 on: (08:52:04/11-17-14) »
Yeah this thread was created before the FAQ update. One of the designers answered and offered interesting thoughts here : http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=18341.0.