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(4e) Shotozumi Massacre

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The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« on: (11:46:19/09-11-14) »
Okay, so I'm reading 4E stuff I haven't read before - I disliked 4E so much for a looong while I didn't keep up with a LOT of it, so there's lots of stuff I haven't actually sat down to read - and I come across this one bit:
Quote from: Corporate Enclaves, p.97
After Hitori Hanzo quashed the Shotozumi uprising back in the early 60s ... The Shotozumi massacre let everyone know that Hitori Hanzo would not permit anyone standing in the way of his success.
... I thought Shotozumi successfully broke off in 2058.  Certainly Ghost Cartels and the Vice download (2071-72) make no mention of any success at squashing the Shotozumi at any time during the 2060's.  Is that a bit of Corporate Enclaves that missed the mark, or have I missed something somewhere??
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The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #1 on: (08:57:28/09-15-14) »
... what???  Pretty sure you meant to post that somewhere else, because it makes no sense as an answer to this thread.
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Sendaz

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« Reply #2 on: (11:57:56/09-15-14) »
whats really weird is irag's comment is a copy of a response in another thread under another user name...... odd.


Been going back through the books and I am with you on not sure what massacre they are referring to in regards to Hanzo as by all accounts the Shotozumi break away was still alive and well in several editions.

Maybe this is from a Missions adventure or are they thinking of when the Yaks purged their Korean elements?   But that was back in the 40s so still not making much sense....
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Wakshaani

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« Reply #3 on: (15:23:35/09-15-14) »
This ones's got me stumped as well. Gadzooks.

Sternenwind

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« Reply #4 on: (01:41:57/09-16-14) »
shadow of asia S.84 fluff text top left

The Shotozumi-Rengo made a claim for leadership and Shotozumi Hanzo aimed to succeed Watada Akira.
Didnít go well for them, Hitori Hanzo argued that he is the only rightful successor, and used ninjas to support his argument.

There may be other and better references but I didnít find them. Maybe some other SR3 books or Missions have more infoís.

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« Reply #5 on: (02:41:33/09-16-14) »
*reads*  I guess that makes sense - but Shadows of Asia is the only place where it ever mentions Shotozumi wanting to make a push to take over all the Yakuza.  Shotozumi Hanzo has only wanted - has only ever wanted - to break away from the Watada-rengo and form his own, which is what he does in the early 2060's.  He didn't want to become Ryumyo's lapdog, exchanging a human boss for a dragon boss; he wanted to be his own man, which is what he did.

Weird.  Only place it's ever mentioned.  I think Malik Toms forgot something.  Or else he just thought 'hey, this would be neat' and threw it in as 'one of those stupid ideas you get when you're a Yakuza Oyabun and in Japan' kind of things.  :P
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Sternenwind

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« Reply #6 on: (05:06:18/09-16-14) »
I donít know if it is truly the only place mentioned, the stuff sounds like a scene from a mission, run or book.
But I wouldnít label it as strange or bad fic, some stories in our real world are so unreal you couldnít even make them up.

But I read your doubt ... challenge accepted.


Watada Akira is sick and Hitori Hanzo took over the comand as acting war chief.
In Watade Akiras name Hanzo invited Shotozumi Hanzo to a secret conference in japan. To talk peace between the Watade and Shotozumi Rengo, for a formal recognize of the Shotozumi Rengo and forming a pact between this two rengos as equals.
Unknown to Shotozumi, Hitori spread rumors that the power hungry, "traitor" Shotozumi wants to succeed Watade Akira. He even hired some runner for a false flag operation to probe and convince other leaders for Shotozumis case, and his claim of leadership.
When the Shotozumi delegation arrieved in Japan Hitoris trap snapped, and his ninjas attacked the delegation.
Hitori presents his evidence of Shotozumis attempt to usurp Watade Akiras title and power. Evidence he donít even had to forge, because somebody really did approach other gumis in Shotozumis name. With only a handfull of people knowing why a Shotozumi-Rengo delegation visited Japan, and most of them dead, Shotozumi Hanzo himself didnít had much of a choice. He could name Hitori a liar and traitor, with no evidence and only his word. The word of an rebel and outsider. Or he could be silent about this all. And with this silence not only save face but also send out the message that Hitori is right and Hanzo Shotozumi has the power to make a claim as oyabun-no-oyabun.

BńM - challenge succeeded
« Last Edit: (05:07:53/09-16-14) by Sternenwind »

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« Reply #7 on: (19:03:37/09-16-14) »
... uh ... it wasn't a challenge.  And I'm sorry, but 'the challenge' hasn't succeeded.

First, the Shotozumi side: Shotozumi is not a patsy; he planned and maneuvered for over a decade in order to basically knife his boss in the guts and take the reins of his own rengo.  There is no way - none - he would go to Japan for a secret conference to normalize relationships.  In that kind of hierarchical culture, and in a situation like that, the one making the overture is the one who does the travelling; to boot, if Shotozumi bowed to courtesy and travelled because Watada was ill, he would let everyone know where he was going and why he was going there.  He would make personal visits to the leaders of each and every gumi within a day's travel - i.e. everyone in Japan - to ensure that if he was going to be stabbed in the back, everyone would know he was there in good faith.

Second, the Hanzo side: while Hanzo had shown himself to be suitable as wakagashira, he showed that he was a severely unwise individual - which strongly suggests that Watada, someone who was both a) subtle himself and b) was able to follow the instructions of a subtle Great Dragon, kept Hanzo around to be the Bad Cop muscle for intimidation purposes.  Going just by the way they discuss the situation, it sounds like Hanzo heard that Shotozumi was putting himself forth, and replied in a 'typical' manner - kill 'em all, let the cops sort it out.

So your points kind of fall down in regards to everything we know about both men - that the one is a subtle manipulator who knows enough to watch his own back, and that the other is a thug who hasn't the common sense that the kami gave a dog.  I continue to have strong doubts that Shotozumi would shoot for the 'top spot' when he's still essentially establishing his authority over his own rengo, but I can definitely see it happening in comparison to the role-reversal you're suggesting.

Sorry.  But thank you for pointing out the rest of the backstory on that.
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Sternenwind

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« Reply #8 on: (05:53:56/09-30-14) »
Come on, donít be such a buzzkill. Have some fun and give me some suspension of disbelief.
I never read the character profils of both Hanzos or there psychological evaluation and IQ test results. A wonderful circumstance, which gives me the freedom for wild assumptions and speculations. But I know two things.
People do apparently stupid things for revenge, greed and because they want to believe.
And no one can ascend and hold leadership without some brain* or a lot of money to burn.

Hitori Hanzo maybe a brute but he also had to have brain, to become and stay second in command. In this environment you either have it, or you get replaced by someone with some brain and ambition. And if he truly had none, he had someone who was his brain. Wouldnít change a thing. In this case, the one in the shadow hatched this plot. And one could say that it was the perfect thing to make sure that the right person ascends Watade, after his dead, and the Yakuza stay splintered.

For Shotozumi I would agree with you that such actions would be atypical for a caution man. But having one weak moment, doing something against better judgment, but with the illusion to know better is just human. Shotozumi wanted nothing more as to be free from the mainland and a power of himself, that I buy and take. But it is one thing to be renegade powerful enough to stay independent and another to be an acknowledge equal and partner. The later gives you legitimacy, peace and prestige. The Nishidon insurrection could not happened, Shotozumi could free resources bound against the mainland, had more global freedom and the option to gain support in pushing back foreign intrusions**. And that is something worth taking risks.
Without knowing about the false flag operation, thatís something with small risk and price. Just some talk, in secrecy. Secrecy, that saves him the time to travel around and visit local gumi/kumi leaders.

And I donít pretend to be an expert in Japanese customs. Customs which, to my understanding, arenít hold high in modern Japan of our time and world. But as far as I got it, in this set of etiquette age is a rang of itself. And I donít think that it would look all too favorable to make an sick, dying, old man travel. I would imagine that, even if you are or want to be a equal, coming to him would be the honorable thing to do. And one could expect that he would apologize deeply for making you coming to him.

*He doesnít have to understand how things work, or what he has to do. It is also ok to understand how to handle, push and backstab people.
** And it doesnít have to be active support through supply of active posts. Coordinate action on global scoop, free sharing of information and easier access to the market and resources of the Watade Rengo is a force/power multiplier of its self.

The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #9 on: (07:54:12/09-30-14) »
Come on, donít be such a buzzkill. Have some fun and give me some suspension of disbelief.
Uh ... no?

I'm sorry, but while your explanation works for you, and for your game, it simply doesn't work for me - it doesn't hang together with what we do know of the personalities involved.  Hitori Hanzo has the reputation of a thug, because he responds with a thug's responses, he takes a thug's actions.  He had a brain, a handler, in the personality of the guy who did rise to the top - Watada.  Watada kept him close by both to keep an eye on him (because he knows the danger of ambitious, violent, but stupid underlings) and to use him as the blunt object Hanzo was.  You're thinking that Hanzo ascended to a leadership position, when - according to the information given on long-term relationships in the Yakuza - in all likelihood he rode into that position on Watada's coattails.  He was a leg-breaker, and when you get down to it, his position remained a leg-breaker, just one that was very close to the throne.

You want there to be someone manipulating Hitori Hanzo from the shadows, when clearly the only person who held his leash was Watada.  The guy was such a moron he refused the 'invitation' from the guy (Great Dragon) who made his own boss into such a criminal powerhouse - and subsequently paid for the insult with his life.

In regards to Shotozumi, which is where all this (in my mind) really hinges, it still and simply doesn't make sense.  He's still getting his own house in order after having broken away from Watada; the only reason this could possibly make sense is for him to decide that in order to settle the issues in Seattle, it would be better to claim the reins of the organization that the dissidents want to return to - so that he can essentially say, 'You can be on my side, or you can be on Watada's my side, your choice.  Doesn't matter to me.'

Shotozumi doesn't need an offer to be an 'acknowledged equal and partner'; Watada isn't going to give him that, and Shotozumi knows that's not likely to happen, because the Great Dragon pulling Watada's puppet-strings isn't about to acknowledge Shotozumi as being its equal in anything.  And, as I said in regards to your suggestion, if Shotozumi got some message for 'secret peace-talks meetings', he would show up in Japan practically with a brass band and loudspeakers announcing his visit, because 'killed at a secret meeting' means 'too stupid to live', and really, Shotozumi ain't that.

And I donít pretend to be an expert in Japanese customs. Customs which, to my understanding, arenít hold high in modern Japan of our time and world. But as far as I got it, in this set of etiquette age is a rang of itself. And I donít think that it would look all too favorable to make an sick, dying, old man travel. I would imagine that, even if you are or want to be a equal, coming to him would be the honorable thing to do. And one could expect that he would apologize deeply for making you coming to him.

Which is why I said previously, and say again, that if Shotozumi was going to accept such a meeting, he WOULD travel to Japan - but he would not be a frickin' idiot.  He'd make his presence known to everyone and their grandmother, passing the trip off as a last visit to his old, dying superior, yadda yadda.  And if Hanzo actually did send messengers to the various Japanese oyabun, then Shotozumi's visits to them would wind up spiking that little plot right then and there.

In any case.  You can plot reasons however you like; IMO, it was a screwup that I'll either gloss over or ignore, depending on whether I'm writing or playing.
Pananagutan & End/Line

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Sichr

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« Reply #10 on: (05:25:44/10-01-14) »
I like Sternenwinds version more, as it is supported by real quotes from canon/books as presented here in this thread. Ignoring those may lead to misunderstandings or contradictions in future.

The Wyrm Ouroboros

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« Reply #11 on: (21:14:43/10-01-14) »
While Sternwind did point out the 'massacre' source, his version of how things could have gone is otherwise unsupported by textev, you realize.
Pananagutan & End/Line

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Sichr

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« Reply #12 on: (07:23:05/10-02-14) »
Correct. To be more exact: It is nowhere to be found but this thread. Well I dont care about the process you both try to describe, for me the only important is the state of events as written in the book. Which you seem to
either gloss over or ignore, depending on whether I'm writing or playing.
. Well, every GM is a god at his own table, as long as he doesn`t want to speak unisono with cannon