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Distance between owner and RCC/Cyberdeck

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Novocrane

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« Reply #15 on: <09-07-14/0359:18> »
I still can't find any way to provide DNI wirelessly, as the only methods specified were the ones that I quoted before (trodes, datajack, implanted device)
Would you say datajacks are not wireless-capable devices?

Xenon

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« Reply #16 on: <09-07-14/0556:03> »
I like the idea that you have to connect a physical wire to the device you want to form your persona on (control rig directly to vehicle/RCC or data jack/trodes directly to external cyberdeck/commlink/RCC), but in that case why would data jack have a wireless bonus...??

There are several examples where you use your interface to establish a wireless link to an external device. Detonate a wireless enabled hand grenade, for example.

The book seem to make a difference between remote control through the matrix and using a wireless link to your DNI (that is why i asked about range for wireless DNI.... remote control through the matrix have no range limit). p. 208 medkits can be controlled remotely via the Matrix or wireless link. Drone on p. 215 can be controlled directly via wireless link or through the matrix...

In SR5 it is pretty obvious that you connect wireless (that wireless is default) and that using an old school wire is just a cumbersome alternative you basically only use between your cyberdeck and a slaved device to bypass host ratings, between control rig and your vehicle or your RCC and your vehicle since all driving tests will count as matrix actions and be subject to noise. In cases you want your internal augmentations to communicate with each other you often get added benefits if you do it wireless rather than using your nervous system....


Also, DNI is not even required at all if you hack from AR (as far as i can tell anyway).

When it comes to AR hacking you just need an image link (for example from a pair of wireless enabled contact lenses), a wireless enabled AR glove and a cyberdeck. No need for trodes or a data jack. And theoretically you should be able to leave your cyberdeck in the van (this prevent you from using it to establish a physical direct connection to bypass master device or host ratings.... but then again, if you already have a mark on a host then you get a direct connection to all slaved devices out on the grid when you enter it...)
« Last Edit: <09-07-14/0605:34> by Xenon »

Marcus

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« Reply #17 on: <09-07-14/1016:01> »
Also, DNI is not even required at all if you hack from AR (as far as i can tell anyway).

I said that back in post 3 of this conversation.

The issue as i see it is there is a difference between DNI and pan subscription are not the same-thing. Wireless active bonus is subscribed to your PAN, DNI, is your interacting with some gadget that requires full direct connection. See Decks and Control Rigs.
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Namikaze

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« Reply #18 on: <09-07-14/1521:51> »
I still can't find any way to provide DNI wirelessly, as the only methods specified were the ones that I quoted before (trodes, datajack, implanted device)
Would you say datajacks are not wireless-capable devices?

No - but a datajack is an implanted device.  I'm talking about a non-implanted, wireless method of gaining DNI - there's no such thing.
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Poindexter

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« Reply #19 on: <09-07-14/1522:21> »
I still can't find any way to provide DNI wirelessly, as the only methods specified were the ones that I quoted before (trodes, datajack, implanted device)
Would you say datajacks are not wireless-capable devices?

No - but a datajack is an implanted device.  I'm talking about a non-implanted, wireless method of gaining DNI - there's no such thing.
what about trodes?
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Namikaze

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« Reply #20 on: <09-07-14/1647:31> »
Trodes have to be attached to your head to work.  You can't just have the trodes sitting across the room and get their benefit.
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Novocrane

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« Reply #21 on: <09-07-14/1755:57> »
I don't particularly care where the device granting DNI is located (it's a given that will be on your head in some fashion) - just the device you are DNI connecting to.

RHat

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« Reply #22 on: <09-07-14/2019:02> »
Trodes have to be attached to your head to work.  You can't just have the trodes sitting across the room and get their benefit.

But the question is the distance to the persona forming device, rather than the DNI granting device,  is it not?
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« Reply #23 on: <09-08-14/0042:15> »
Trodes have to be attached to your head to work.  You can't just have the trodes sitting across the room and get their benefit.

But the question is the distance to the persona forming device, rather than the DNI granting device,  is it not?

Indeed, RHat, it is about the distance between the decker and his/her deck.

RCC & Cyberdeck are both wireless enabled.  Can I go to the meet, leave my deck in the van, and still hack/Jump-in if I need to?  Can I leave it in my apartment?

And the answer there is no.
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RHat

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« Reply #24 on: <09-08-14/0124:26> »
Trodes have to be attached to your head to work.  You can't just have the trodes sitting across the room and get their benefit.

But the question is the distance to the persona forming device, rather than the DNI granting device,  is it not?

Indeed, RHat, it is about the distance between the decker and his/her deck.

RCC & Cyberdeck are both wireless enabled.  Can I go to the meet, leave my deck in the van, and still hack/Jump-in if I need to?  Can I leave it in my apartment?

And the answer there is no.

Do you have a citation on that?  It doesn't seem quite right to me - after all, a datajack can work wirelessly.  Other than old school cyberpunk tropes, there's not a lot of reason why that wireless connection wouldn't be sufficient for working your deck and jumping in.
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« Reply #25 on: <09-08-14/0305:08> »
Just the last 20 years of Shadowrun, mostly.  Plus there's the quote that I cited earlier, which states that you can only get DNI via trodes, datajack, or implanted device.  I realize that a datajack can be wireless, but it just seems completely counter to the whole system to suddenly be able to use a cyberdeck from 100m away to hack something another 100m from the deck.  All DNI requires a sim module, which is covered here:

Quote from: Core Book, page 438
Sim Module: This commlink upgrade gives you the simsense experience, translating computer data into neural signals that allow you to directly experience simsense programs and augmented reality. A sim module must be accessed via a direct neural interface (trodes, datajack, or implanted commlink). Sim modules are a must-have for virtual reality of sorts, including VR clubs, VR games, simsense, and darker virtual pleasures. Sim modules can be modified for hot-sim, which opens up the full (and dangerous) range of VR experiences.

It sure seems like you're supposed to be damn close to the device to get DNI.  This is the problem, in my opinion, with the term "wireless bonus."  It implies all kinds of things that have never been true.  Here's the text on a datajack:

Quote from: Core Book, page 452
Datajack: A datajack gives you a direct neural interface (p. 222), which can be handy in a lot of situations. It also comes with a retractable spool of micro-cable (about a meter long) that lets you directly interface
with any electronic device via a universal access cable.  Datajacks are equipped with their own cache of storage memory for downloading or saving files. Two datajack users can string a fiberoptic cable between themselves
to conduct a private mental communication immune to radio interception or eavesdropping.
Wireless: The datajack gives you Rating 1 noise reduction.

Datajacks have never been able to be accessed wirelessly, not even in 4th edition.  Why would that suddenly change now simply because of an omission of detail, or the poorly-phrased "wireless bonus?"  I mean, a wireless bonus can be applied to items that should not have wireless bonuses, like chameleon suits.  I'm pretty confident that "wireless bonus" isn't supposed to mean the device is actually wireless.  I'm pretty confident that the bonus is meant to be applied when the device has access to the Matrix.

Quote from: Core Book, page 421
it means nearly every piece of gear and cyberware benefits dramatically from being “meshed” into your wireless personal area network and the Matrix as a whole.
When an item has additional functionality when connected to the Matrix, it’s described under the “Wireless” entry in the item’s description. This functionality only applies when the device has access to the Matrix, which is most of the time unless your gamemaster says otherwise, like if you’ve entered a wireless static zone.

And there's the text on wireless bonuses.  I've highlighted the pertinent parts.  And then there's the bit I've highlighted in orange, which just makes the whole previous section seem confusing.  Think about what this implies if datajacks can be treated as devices on the Grids.  Someone could hack a datajack directly, which gives access to all devices that are connected via that datajack, even if that datajack is currently in use.  What about the Device Rating of that datajack?  Why hack a vehicle that is being rigged, when you could hack the datajack and get access to the rigger's brain directly?  Hell, since a datajack has no Sleaze rating, it's perfectly visible to everything on the Grid, right?  Let's just pour some biofeedback damage right into someone's brain.  It gets absurd pretty quickly.
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Xenon

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« Reply #26 on: <09-08-14/0325:27> »
The connection you have to his brain goes through his sim module which is located on his cyberdeck. But from the matrix you don't see his brain, datajack, sim module or cyberdeck. From the matrix all this will have one icon. The persona icon.

If this had been SR5 then I world have agreed with you that you need to either physically press buttons on your cyberdeck (for AR hacking) or physically connect your cyberdeck with a wire to your datajack.

But in SR5 you can establish a wireless link from your DNI to an external device. Such as a wireless triggered hand grenade you just thrown. Why not your cyberdeck?!

RHat

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« Reply #27 on: <09-08-14/0444:37> »
The whole "last 20 years of Shadowrun" reasoning, though, doesn't really apply here - because we're talking about an element that hasn't been there for the last 20 years of Shadowrun; relatively, this is recent.  Further, that logic really can't justify a flat "no" on a rules question - the answer that justifies is more "the rules don't really say, but...".

Also, that quote on sim modules demonstrates that a sim module requires DNI, but not the reverse.  In any case, it doesn't mandate a physical connection to the sim module.

Fact is, the SR5 general rule is that anything save a throwback has a wireless connection.  There's no specific rule to override that for datajacks, so far as I know.
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decPL

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« Reply #28 on: <09-08-14/0535:00> »
The whole reasoning that using a DNI requires physical connection stems from the sentence that e.g. datajack is required to form a DNI. However, the only argument that this implies physical connection between the datajack and target device is '20 years of Shadowrun', which does not take into account the complete rebuild of Matrix since Crash 2.0.

Just thinking out loud - apologies if I'm confusing this, AFB - if jumping in requires a direct connection, would you be completely prohibited from jumping into flying drones, unless those are attached by a few klicks of physical cable? I'm fairly certain that remote jump-ins are explicitly mentioned in the rulebook. If it's not, jumping into drones just got nerfed (at least from my perspective) into oblivion.

RHat

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« Reply #29 on: <09-08-14/0550:44> »
To be fair, Datajacks in SR4 did require a physical connection, and that would certainly be taking Crash 2.0 and the aftermath into account.
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