[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

That is part of the SR canon, yes.

[Crimsondude]

Thanks for that reference.  I don't think I have that book but I"ll check.

What was Thais motivation for teaching the Ghost Dance?  Sympathy with an oppressed minority?

I think so.

I cannot remember and don't have a copy of the book anymore.

[Larsine]

IIRC Thais was trying to make a spike in the mana level, so it would be easier for other horrors to enter the 6th world way before it would naturally happen. The Great Ghost Danbce was one the the ways to make mana spikes. Dunkelzahn managed to stop that, and things should be back to normal now.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Youuuuu would be wrong about the intent.  Were that true, Thais would be cinders by now.

[Mirikon]

Interesting.  In other words, a large magical ritual might be able to accomplish more with a low man level than a single magician?

That is the entire purpose of rituals. If we go with the idea that magic is like water, and the magician is the nozzle on the hose, then it makes sense that fixing four, ten, or a hundred 'streams' onto a single goal working as one will do better than a single high-powered stream, especially for large-scale uses. When there's a fire, does the fire department send a single truck with a water cannon, or several trucks with hoses that can be used together to combat the blaze? The thing about rituals, however, is that they scale with the power of the individuals involved. For instance, when Great Dragons decide they need to use ritual magic and multiple great dragons to do it, the effects can be world-shaking. Which is why you don't see Great Dragons use ritual magic together that often (also, they don't get along that well).

IIRC Thais was trying to make a spike in the mana level, so it would be easier for other horrors to enter the 6th world way before it would naturally happen. The Great Ghost Dance was one the the ways to make mana spikes. Dunkelzahn managed to stop that, and things should be back to normal now.

That would be... extremely wrong. I don't recall if it went into Thais's motivations or not in Worlds Without End, but it was certainly not bringing back the Horrors. Mana spikes creating an opening for the Horrors was something that was only discovered after the events of Harlequin's Back (Harlequin sending runners to fight in the metaplanes at the site of the bridge), House of the Sun (Harlequin and Dirk Montgomery stopping crazy Hawaiians from doing their own Ghost Dance and letting in Horrors), and Worlds Without End (when Aina hears what Harlequin has been up to, and puts the pieces together with the bad dreams she's been having, and tells all the immortals, including Big D). This threat was ended (for the moment) when Big D blew himself up after becoming President, and the events of the Dragonheart Trilogy (Big D standing all Gandalf on the Bridge, going "You shall not pass!").

[Wazlethwack]

I was under the impression that it was Mr. Darke and friends who wanted to build a bridge for the Horrors.  I never did figure out exactly what group or organization was behind him.  I think he had help from Aztechnology.  The mana spike generated by the Ghost Dance was simply a side effect of the ritual that Darke wanted to take advantage of.

As I said, I don't know as much about Thais as I'd like to but I don't recall Thais wanting to summon horrors. 

Are there any idiots that are still trying to bring the Horrors over from their metaplane?

[Ariketh]

Are there any idiots that are still trying to bring the Horrors over from their metaplane?

Officially? Not likely.

Due to the separate ownership (licensing?) of the Earthdawn and Shadowrun IP's, it is my understanding that the SR writers & freelancers have being doing their best to cut (or at least, not expand on) ties between the two IPs. Events that happened, still happened, but going forward there won't be anything intentionally Horror or Earthdawn related. It bums me out a bit as I liked the depth it provided for the SR universe, even though I was not a fan of Earthdawn.

Unofficially? Do whatever you feel like doing.

-Ariketh

[Wazlethwack]

Harlequin is in Clutch of Dragons so they must not be totally getting rid of the Earthdawn connections.  Actually I'm not surprised they haven't completely dropped Harlequin from Shadowrun. 

I can't find much on Thais online. I'd snag Caroline Spector's two Earthdawn novels but they appear to be impossible to find in print form.  I dislike reading on computer screens.

[Crimsondude]

Plus they're only in German.

Harlequin has been part of SR from the beginning, and predates ED by several years. He's probably not going anywhere. As for ED connections, what came before is still fair game. The reason it's been reduced more than anything, and this is mostly speculation combined with the subjects most of the writers seem interested in,  is that it's not that interesting and a grand eldritch conspiracy to summon a version of the Old Ones isn't cyberpunk or even magical in a world where the mana level is supposed to be low and growing, not reaching sigma 1 or 2 on mana's normal curve where these things can actually manifest. We're still in sigma 6 or maybe 5 (only because there are so many more sapients alive than during the Fourth World.

Anyway, Thais is mentioned in Clutch a couple of times. He's become a clandestine "associate" of the Draco Foundation, and he's wandering around performing arcanoarchaeology, dealing with his mother's death, and being pissed off at the JackPointer Elijah for an unspecified offense to his/his mother's person.

[Wazlethwack]

I must admit I've always liked the connections between Earthdawn and Shadowrun.  When Earthdawn stuff was put into Shadowrun it felt like interesting puzzle nuggets to look for.  And it seemed Earthdawn provided a sort of look into future of the Sixth World.  And dropping a horror in now and then could provide a good baddie. 

That being said, I wouldn't want the game to focus entirely on the horrors or have them come barreling through the metaplanes.

I think Spector's novels did finally get published in English but they had a very limited run. Sellers on Amazon and Barnes and Noble may have some copies to sell.  At about $1,000 per.  Not, I'm not kidding.

[psycho835]

I was under the impression that it was Mr. Darke and friends who wanted to build a bridge for the Horrors.  I never did figure out exactly what group or organization was behind him.  I think he had help from Aztechnology.  The mana spike generated by the Ghost Dance was simply a side effect of the ritual that Darke wanted to take advantage of.

As I said, I don't know as much about Thais as I'd like to but I don't recall Thais wanting to summon horrors. 

Are there any idiots that are still trying to bring the Horrors over from their metaplane?

Corporate guide, page 75. Pretty much confirms that Darke worked with (for?) the Blood Mage Gestalt/Smoking Mirror/whatever-th-frag-they-call-themselves-these -days.

Personally, I kind of miss those connections to Earthdawn, even though I have little intrest in Earthdawn itself. It's kind of fun to discover stuff that goes all the way back to Fourth Age and occasionally tangle with an apocalyptic cult (that has one of the setting's biggest megacorps for backup), with a veritable army of eldritch abominations straight out of Lovecraft's nightmares looming in the background.

[Mirikon]

Indeed. While I like a lot of the things they did in 4th, I do miss the Earthdawn connections. But the nostalgia train is in full swing on 5th, so maybe we'll get something positive out of it, to balance out the new (old) matrix and other such things?

[Crimsondude]

I must admit I've always liked the connections between Earthdawn and Shadowrun.  When Earthdawn stuff was put into Shadowrun it felt like interesting puzzle nuggets to look for.  And it seemed Earthdawn provided a sort of look into future of the Sixth World.  And dropping a horror in now and then could provide a good baddie. 

That stuff isn't gone. It's just not the focus like it was. There are nods every once in a while. Some are overt (The Vatican fighting incursions during mini-Awakenings/spikes in Loose Alliances) and others ... aren't.

I started out writing spending twenty years hating immortal shit. Guess who many if not most of my published words have ended up being about (as measured in words per character). The benefit is that you can spend years between events. There is some pretty significant fallout from the Watergate Rift closing, and all anyone talks about is Ghostwalker finding and rescuing the last parts of Zebulon. There are at least six other rather clear plotlines that have actually been discussed in books, and several that haven't been spelled out that exist.

I think Spector's novels did finally get published in English but they had a very limited run. Sellers on Amazon and Barnes and Noble may have some copies to sell.  At about $1,000 per.  Not, I'm not kidding.

IIRC, it's more likely they are leaked galleys than actual books.

[Wazlethwack]

I didn't know Zebulon had an Earthdawn connection.  I know from the old Denver source book that the spirit was mentioned.  I suppose if Zebulon was Ghostwalker's old mate that said relationship probably goes back to the fourth world.  Though I thought dragons didn't mate for life.....

I think that tying the fourth and sixth worlds together can give Shadowrun an extra richness and depth.  Though obviously that kind of thing can be taken too far.  Though I would like to see an all out war between the two Tirs.  And in the process have their dirty laundry publicly aired.

Here's my suspicion as to why the two were linked in the first place:  FASA was hoping that by linking them that Earthdawn could capitalize on the popularity of Shadowrun and sell more Earthdawn books.  And possibly vice versa.

[Crimsondude]

I didn't know Zebulon had an Earthdawn connection.  I know from the old Denver source book that the spirit was mentioned.  I suppose if Zebulon was Ghostwalker's old mate that said relationship probably goes back to the fourth world.  Though I thought dragons didn't mate for life.....

They don't.


Most don't, anyway.