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Classes - Am I missing something?

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Brian2112

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« on: (12:09:38/08-25-14) »
A friend picked up a copy of Crossfire at GC and we have played some missions.  I haven't had a chance to read the rules, the game owner read through them and showed us how to play. 

What is the point of classes and race?  I know each class has a color and gets a starting hand related to the class/color, but if you can mix it up as the game goes on why start with a class?  As for the race, no one wants to play the elf.  Too easy to knock out and then you are just playing for a draw.  Why would you not want to play the Troll with the most hit points?  The game doesn't differentiate and everyone is hit the same.  It's not like the Elf is faster and can avoid the damage. 

Unless there are expansions to add special rules and abilities per race/class it just seems like you are throwing out damage cards based on your color (red, green, blue, black).  Yes there are a few cards with special abilities, but nothing that makes me feel like I'm playing a face or decker.

I like the concept of the game and would recommend it.  I'd just like to see more cards to give abilities to each class.  Right now success is based on having hit points and the Troll is the best option.

Bull

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« Reply #1 on: (15:05:02/08-25-14) »
The Roles give you a focus to your cards.  Sure, anyone can buy Deathtouch for their first card, but since it's extra damage relies on drawing and revealing blue spell cards, it's much better in the hands of the mage role.  Katana is the same for the Street Sam, since it makes black Weapon cards deal extra damage.  And since those roles start with 4 of the basic type in their deck instead of just one, this is important.

And the key is working together.  The troll or ork players should be trying to tank for the elf (or even the human/dwarf), using cards like Monowhip to pull obstacles over to them.  Each race has it's advantage and disadvantage.  For the elf, it's a total balance, which makes it a bit weak physically, but gives them a strong starting nuyen and hand size.  And once you can bump one or two of those up a couple with Karma, it opens the character up a lot.

Fedifensor

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« Reply #2 on: (15:30:29/08-25-14) »
I think there is a flaw in the assumption that 1 HP = 1 extra starting card = 1 nuyen.

The cheapest card you can buy from the Black Market is 2 nuyen, so 1 extra card is considered to be worth at least 2 HP.  That seems wrong to me.

Likewise, since the base cards are all 1 damage of a particular type, getting 1 extra card for 1 less HP also seems to be a bad deal.  Even if the extra cards let you take out a foe 1 turn earlier, you're only saving 1 to 2 HP...and chances are you won't have the card variety you need to finish the first round significantly quicker.

Even if you put more value on starting cards and nuyen, HP appears to be the safe, reliable choice.

Bull

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« Reply #3 on: (15:54:47/08-25-14) »
Possibly.  But that's how the balance shakes out anyway.  <shrug>  I don't entirely disagree, for what it's worth, just pointing out what the cards do.

During the demos I stopped putting the elf out.  But a part of that was also bad luck on teh players parts.  It seemed like every game the elf had a 2 damage, really tough obstacle in front of him, and it tended to take a couple turns to actually deal with it, so he was hurting bad or staggered right away.  And for a demo, that just kind of sucks.

Dr. Meatgrinder

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« Reply #4 on: (22:46:26/08-25-14) »
There's no such thing as reliable tanking, until you get enough karma to buy the True Pro upgrade (start with a 2 nuyen card, 30 karma).  You're too dependent on the random draw.  Big Plans (5 karma) can do it, but it relies on buying a 6+ cost card.

It seems a lot harder for 1 starting card or 1 nuyen to make as much a difference in the game as 1 HP, especially with the first level in a lot of obstacles being multiple damage.  There are too many obstacles that do 2 damage and too many ways for a character to end up facing 2 obstacles to be playing with a character that starts with only 4 HP.  Alternatively, maybe consider the race cards as a way to set difficulty:  Hard Mode is all Elves, Easy(easier) Mode is all Trolls.  Since healing can be hard to come by, it's all about starting HP.  The exception is that if you don't start with any cards in hand, you just take damage your first turn.

What are the first upgrades I buy?  Got Your Backs (pay 3 nuyen to heal a staggered runner 1 HP) and Just Tough (+1 HP), each 5 karma (+10 for the second slot).  True Pro (at 30 karma) is the first chance you get to choose a card for your starting deck beside the basics--and the 2 karma cards are decent, though the red one is a lot less frequently useful.  Prep Work (10 karma) is potentially useful, but depends on the initial Black Market draw.

If the Crossfire scenario is giving you trouble, try the Extraction scenario.  At least you can run out the clock on the Extraction scenario, which can give some leeway when a bad event card comes up.  I haven't seen the Harlequin's Shadow card, so I don't know if it makes Close the Portal any less impossible (seems like you have maybe 2-3 rounds before the portal pops and drowns the team in obstacles).
« Last Edit: (22:55:46/08-25-14) by Dr. Meatgrinder »
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JustLogan

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« Reply #5 on: (00:29:35/08-27-14) »
Weird from the dev diary and my experience the higher HP the race the worse it is. I think the design blog listed the races human elf dwarf ork  troll from best to worse. Having an elf go last turn can mean it takes no damage 1st turn and by turn 2 should be buying cards to stay ahead of the damage. In this game slow is dead and trolls are the slowest.    Edit: http://www.shadowruntabletop.com/2013/05/crossfire-developing-the-metatypes/
« Last Edit: (02:37:49/08-27-14) by JustLogan »

Dr. Meatgrinder

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« Reply #6 on: (21:07:18/08-29-14) »
After a few games, I'm starting to like the Ork, perhaps better than the Troll.  They get crap for money (1 nuyen), but almost as many HP as the troll and the best starting cards of any race.  Starting cards are nice for burning down obstacles early, and it's worth a HP because the Troll's probably going to take a damage (or two) before he can burn his obstacle down.  I'm finding starting nuyen largely irrelevant because if you're burning stuff down quickly (and you have to in order to survive) nuyen will flow anyway.
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Imveros

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« Reply #7 on: (01:28:58/08-30-14) »
After a few games, I'm starting to like the Ork, perhaps better than the Troll.  They get crap for money (1 nuyen), but almost as many HP as the troll and the best starting cards of any race.  Starting cards are nice for burning down obstacles early, and it's worth a HP because the Troll's probably going to take a damage (or two) before he can burn his obstacle down.  I'm finding starting nuyen largely irrelevant because if you're burning stuff down quickly (and you have to in order to survive) nuyen will flow anyway.

I agree. The orc is my go to race. I love the art on them too!
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PiXeL01

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« Reply #8 on: (21:43:49/08-30-14) »
That's good news since I was planning on playing orks all along. Sucks for the dandelion eater-lovers though. 
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Fedifensor

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« Reply #9 on: (00:43:19/09-01-14) »
I think I'm going to try the Dwarf on my next run.  With 5 starting Nuyen, you should be able to get a good card permanently added to your deck at the end of your first turn.  Something like Press the Advantage or DocWagon Contract would be a big boost early in the game, and there are some cards that work very well for specific roles (Deathtouch for Mages, etc).

Imveros

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« Reply #10 on: (21:52:17/09-01-14) »
the only problem is that dwarves are fairly worthless on their first turn. A hand size of 2 is bad news TM
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Fedifensor

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« Reply #11 on: (23:53:14/09-08-14) »
the only problem is that dwarves are fairly worthless on their first turn. A hand size of 2 is bad news TM
True - don't have your entire group play Dwarves.  However, one Dwarf with the extra +1 Nuyen (for 5 Karma) can be very useful, and it gets better as you get more Karma.  At 25 Karma, I could have +1 to Nuyen, and the ability to buy a card from the Black Market at the start of the game.  The only cards that cost more than 6 Nuyen are the 9 Nuyen mega cards (of which there are only 4 in the deck).  That effectively gives the Dwarf 3 cards at the start...and one of those three should be much better than the 1 damage starter cards.

Namikaze

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« Reply #12 on: (01:12:51/09-09-14) »
I like the idea of a dwarf Face, because a lot of those Face cards shuffle nuyen around like crazy.  And it wouldn't be a bad idea to get that perk that lets you heal Staggered runners while you're at it.
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MAC

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« Reply #13 on: (15:57:05/09-30-14) »
I just played about a dozen of games with the dwarf this week end. I must say I envy the humans starting hands. However once you get the perk that allows you to buy a card at the beginning of the game it is much different. Having an advanced card of the first turn can be extremely useful I really like the hacking card that you can discard a card to get it back to your hand and assist cards to help the others.