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Initiation Confusion

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FastJack

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« Reply #15 on: <12-09-10/1456:13> »
So, a grade 100 initiate would get 100 dice on Drain Resistance as long as she can center herself.

Yes, and still die. Let's say Drain in this case is a fairly normal non=overcasting Force/2, or 50S. 25-33 of that can be sucked up by 100 dice of drain resistance. Result, unconsciousness at best.

Good time to spend a point of Edge and explode those sixes! ;D

Nomad Zophiel

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« Reply #16 on: <12-09-10/1500:46> »
Or have a bunch of spirit pacts.

The_Gun_Nut

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« Reply #17 on: <12-10-10/1022:42> »
One point of Edge buys all those rerolls. 

Using straight odds , let's say you get 33 hits, then buy a reroll.  That's another 22 hits, for a total of 55.  That drain disappears from just the Centering.
There is no overkill.

Only "Open fire" and "I need to reload."

Chaemera

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« Reply #18 on: <12-10-10/2017:28> »
One point of Edge buys all those rerolls. 

Using straight odds , let's say you get 33 hits, then buy a reroll.  That's another 22 hits, for a total of 55.  That drain disappears from just the Centering.

So you can summon / cast exactly as many obscene-Force spirits/spells as you have Edge, good job. Especially when someone then sneaks in for that point-blank shot while you're unaware.
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The_Gun_Nut

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« Reply #19 on: <12-11-10/0910:21> »
When is this?  After you have your Force 100 spirit or your Force 100 Armor spell you locked on prior to doing anything?  Having 25 auto-hits means not worrying the small stuff (like guass rifles).  Since it takes, what, a single IP to summon that Force 100 spirit and sic him on someone, I'm pretty sure your armor spell will suck the damage you might take while summoning.  Then it's "Say goodnight, Gracie."
There is no overkill.

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Chaemera

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« Reply #20 on: <12-11-10/0929:59> »
When is this?  After you have your Force 100 spirit or your Force 100 Armor spell you locked on prior to doing anything?  Having 25 auto-hits means not worrying the small stuff (like guass rifles).  Since it takes, what, a single IP to summon that Force 100 spirit and sic him on someone, I'm pretty sure your armor spell will suck the damage you might take while summoning.  Then it's "Say goodnight, Gracie."

Keep the playing field level, Gun Nut, how much karma is this mage at right now, just for Initiation 100 and Magic 100, assume he never learned anything else beyond initiation and magic, and started at Magic 5. Assume he was a member of an Magical Group and performed a Group Ordeal every time he initiated... That's still 35558 Karma. And his body is still at 2, his reaction is still at 2. He only knows the spells he learned as a child.

Who other than an IE or a Great Dragon is going to have karma like that? And from everything I've read, the description you give fits IEs and Great Dragons (heck, IE's probably don't have over 35k in karma). If you can rack up that kind of karma, first of all, I don't care that you can perform these grandiose feats and secondly, your enemies are liable to be as karma loaded, have invented a whole new generation of magic-penetrating bullets specifically built to that mage's specifications.

More over, the Armor spell provides Armor equal to Net Hits (not Force), so no, I'm not trying to get through Armor 100, I'm trying to get through armor of 35. With the right weapons, that's doable. Assuming he learned armor as one of his first spells out of the box.

The problem is, you're looking at the breakdown point of 35k+ karma. Of course stuff isn't going to work. Newtonian physics and the Law of General Relativity both break down for sufficiently large / small objects. So if reality doesn't work in the extremes, I have no problem with game mechanics doing the same. Especially when he has to spend so much edge just to survive the initial spell casting
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KarmaInferno

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« Reply #21 on: <12-11-10/1036:18> »
Who other than an IE or a Great Dragon is going to have karma like that?

The theoretical "100 Magic initiate" in question is in fact an IE, though, no?



-k

The_Gun_Nut

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« Reply #22 on: <12-11-10/1121:24> »
Very much so.  Even just granting the guy a single point of Karma per year, that IE has 5000 to 7000+ karma to spend on whatever.  His magic pools will become ridiculous just on that.

My overall point is that Immortal Elves have nothing to fear from anything, including the return of the Horrors, if magic accumulation is an infinite progression.  While even great dragons respect them, they don't wet themselves at the thought that an Immortal Elf might randomly think about tossing the equivalent of a nuclear weapon at them and shrugging off the drain four times a round.

I like it when game systems can incorporate even epic powered characters into them, while keeping them grounded in the RAW.  These guys drift into Starkiller status with the open end like it is.  It even allows regular characters to accumulate enough Karma to dip into the double digits of initiation and drop some hideous ruination on their targets.  Granted, it would take tons and tons of karma to do so, but it still irks me a bit.
There is no overkill.

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FastJack

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« Reply #23 on: <12-11-10/1132:27> »
Well, I just crunched some numbers. If an IE started with a Magic Attribute of 6, to get to an Initiate Grade 100 and Magic Attribute of 100, it would cost 16,680 Karma. So, it is possible...

Kot

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« Reply #24 on: <12-11-10/1156:03> »
My overall point is that Immortal Elves have nothing to fear from anything, including the return of the Horrors, if magic accumulation is an infinite progression.  While even great dragons respect them, they don't wet themselves at the thought that an Immortal Elf might randomly think about tossing the equivalent of a nuclear weapon at them and shrugging off the drain four times a round.
The thing is, that they have. A shot to the face is a shot to the face, even if you have a high magic score. Yes, they dont age, get sick, and such. But they still need to take care of their meat. And as for dragons, some do respect a few IE's, but these two groups are still enemies. Immortal Elves want to kill all dragons, and some dragons have more than a grudge against them (like Alamais, who really hates them, especially those from the Blood Wood, like Alachia). The only things that keep them from waging war is that they don't benefit from it. And off course they could forge a temporary alliance to figh the Horrors, but only that. With Big D dead, and his brother Ghostwalker back in business (Icewing overslept, heh), things won't be as civil as they were.
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Chaemera

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« Reply #25 on: <12-11-10/1259:49> »
Well, I just crunched some numbers. If an IE started with a Magic Attribute of 6, to get to an Initiate Grade 100 and Magic Attribute of 100, it would cost 16,680 Karma. So, it is possible...
Hrm...
Using Magic 5 & assuming group ordeals for all initiations, I came up with 35,558 Karma. We shouldn't be that far off from one another. Maybe my math has some rounding errors (from the 0.6 multiplier from group ordeals), but I wouldn't think they'd be that big.

Equations are:
Initiation Karma = (10+(New Grade x 3)) x 0.6
Magic Karma = New Magic x 5
right?
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Kot

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« Reply #26 on: <12-11-10/1323:40> »
Stop with the damn numbers. I'm suffering drain from trying to grasp that.
Mariusz "Kot" Butrykowski
"Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with ketchup."

The_Gun_Nut

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« Reply #27 on: <12-11-10/1341:01> »
I whipped up a quickie spreadsheet to do the crunching.  I came up with 34,865 assuming starting magic 5 and buying up everything.  Assuming a 7000 year lifespan, it would require just under 5 karma per year to pull off, assuming ONLY initiations and magic rating purchases.  So, still possible.

I uploaded it here http://www.mediafire.com/file/56ez95lbs7ikyfg/Shadowrun%20initiation.pdf.  Feel free to point out any mistakes.
There is no overkill.

Only "Open fire" and "I need to reload."

FastJack

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« Reply #28 on: <12-11-10/1344:15> »
Well, I just crunched some numbers. If an IE started with a Magic Attribute of 6, to get to an Initiate Grade 100 and Magic Attribute of 100, it would cost 16,680 Karma. So, it is possible...
Hrm...
Using Magic 5 & assuming group ordeals for all initiations, I came up with 35,558 Karma. We shouldn't be that far off from one another. Maybe my math has some rounding errors (from the 0.6 multiplier from group ordeals), but I wouldn't think they'd be that big.

Equations are:
Initiation Karma = (10+(New Grade x 3)) x 0.6
Magic Karma = New Magic x 5
right?
My bad, I hadn't "added" the New Magic's together... Without Group Ordeals, it comes out to 44,400. So, over 7,000 years, they'd have to earn about 6½ Karma a year and ignore all other skills/attribute advancement.

The_Gun_Nut

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« Reply #29 on: <12-11-10/1346:15> »
It's still possible, it just becomes a lot less likely.

And a few points off of 100 are kinda trivial, at this point.
There is no overkill.

Only "Open fire" and "I need to reload."