[Haunters]

What is the Max Initiation Grade?

I know that in the Shadowrun 20th Anniversary Edition, p. 198, it says that the Maximum Grade for Initiation is the character's Magic level, but one of the benefits is that the initiates natural maximum for Magic is 6 + Initiation Grade.

Does this mean an Initiate can have ∞ Maximum Magic so long as they keep alternating purchasing Initiation Grade & Magic?

That seems wrong and broken.

What is the true limit and what page is it on?

[The_Gun_Nut]

As per RAW, the limit is in fact infinite.  It gets really expensive to go higher, but as long as you get karma, you can get initiations and therefore more magic.

I have a problem with this as well, as it would mean that Immortal Elves would never worry about Horrors in the first place, since they can safely cast mile wide AOE spells and summon up 100+ Force rating Great Forms all day.  Thoroughly ridiculous.

[FastJack]

We've discussed this before (detailed here). It's based off your Current Magic Attribute, and since Initiation raises the Max Magic Attribute, you can then increase that, which increases the Maximum Initiation Grade.

So, yes, it's an ∞ cycle as long as you keep increasing both your attribute and initiation grade.

[FastJack]

As per RAW, the limit is in fact infinite.  It gets really expensive to go higher, but as long as you get karma, you can get initiations and therefore more magic.

I have a problem with this as well, as it would mean that Immortal Elves would never worry about Horrors in the first place, since they can safely cast mile wide AOE spells and summon up 100+ Force rating Great Forms all day.  Thoroughly ridiculous.

Oh, I don't know. I mean, once you get into 10+ grades, the Karma Cost gets pretty high. if an Immortal Elf is grade 50 with a Magic Attribute of 49, he'd have to pay 160 Karma to go up one grade and to raise his Magic Attribute to 50 would cost 250 Karma.

Since during the low-mana fourth age, most IEs were hiding out and blending in, they really didn't have much opportunity to gain a significant amount of karma, nor the study and practice of improving their magical abilities. I don't think they'd be "locked in" to the same level they were before the low-mana cycle, but they wouldn't had increased it by more than 1-3 grades and/or attribute increases during the 5,000 years.

[Haunters]

As per RAW, the limit is in fact infinite.  It gets really expensive to go higher, but as long as you get karma, you can get initiations and therefore more magic.

I have a problem with this as well, as it would mean that Immortal Elves would never worry about Horrors in the first place, since they can safely cast mile wide AOE spells and summon up 100+ Force rating Great Forms all day.  Thoroughly ridiculous.

Oh, I don't know. I mean, once you get into 10+ grades, the Karma Cost gets pretty high. if an Immortal Elf is grade 50 with a Magic Attribute of 49, he'd have to pay 160 Karma to go up one grade and to raise his Magic Attribute to 50 would cost 250 Karma.

Since during the low-mana fourth age, most IEs were hiding out and blending in, they really didn't have much opportunity to gain a significant amount of karma, nor the study and practice of improving their magical abilities. I don't think they'd be "locked in" to the same level they were before the low-mana cycle, but they wouldn't had increased it by more than 1-3 grades and/or attribute increases during the 5,000 years.

Note: I wrote this reply to the first guy who replied to me, but then everybody else answered, so while it may be redundant, I am far too lazy to re-edit my thoughts, so Nya.


I am still very new at this and am still trying to finish my first Shadowrun book, but my understanding is that Elves didn't arrive on the scene until 2011. This means that they only had 61 years to improve their magical arts. Considering that most people did not know what they were doing and research into magic started out with most people stumbling in the dark trying to understand the basics, I don't think that any living creature has had the opportunity to become that powerful, especially when their time is better spent in the corporate world (in order to afford connections around the globe to other's research notes, for example).

Plus that is what Sniper Rifles and a good spot a mile away are for. Or you can trick them into pissing off a Dragon.

p.s. Thanks for the answer :-)

[FastJack]

Ah, a newb.

Welcome to the sixth world. Let me explain. No, there is too much. Let me sum up.

It turns out that there are a group of Immortal Elves that, along with the Great Dragons, have been around since the Fourth Age*. No one's really sure how they became immortal, but they are. First introduced in the Harlequin campaign book, they've been popping up in Shadowland and such ever since (Jane Foster, the main protagonist in the Dawn of the Artifacts adventures is the newest edition to the group, being Ehran the Scribe's daughter and Harlequin's protégé.

So, welcome, enjoy the soykaf and remember, a wise man once said, "Watch your back, conserve ammo, and never cut a deal with a Dragon."



*My bad, I said fourth age in my previous post when I meant fifth age. Damn cold weather and arthritic fingers!

[Walks Through Walls]

As per RAW, the limit is in fact infinite.  It gets really expensive to go higher, but as long as you get karma, you can get initiations and therefore more magic.

I have a problem with this as well, as it would mean that Immortal Elves would never worry about Horrors in the first place, since they can safely cast mile wide AOE spells and summon up 100+ Force rating Great Forms all day.  Thoroughly ridiculous.

I disagree about being able to summon up 100+ force great forms. This definitely isn't true. You have to remember that drain comes from the spirits successes not net successes. So you get much over force 12 and they start being able to get enough successes that you cannot survive drain since it is their number of successes X2 that becomes your drain code. Even with a powerful focus you won't get enough dice since your magic rating isn't part of the drain resistance it could be 100 and it doesn't help one bit.

The thing with the spells item is that with a bit of counterspelling it becomes possible to resist spells even if they do hit an AOE of a mile or two. Again if you have to cast at a really high force say 30 to get the spell through again drain is going to do a number on you. If the horrors have massive numbers and a few really powerful creatures it wouldn't take long to overrun the earth. Metahumanity couldn't afford to trade 1 immortal elf per mile to hold onto things for long.

[FastJack]

I was just going to give you a high-five on that WTW, but then I remembered this:

Centering: A character who learns to center has an easier time resisting the Drain inherent in magical activities. By using a mundane activity appropriate to her tradition to quiet her mind and block out distractions, she adds a number of dice equal to her grade of initiation to all Drain Resistance Tests. Centering requires a Free Action, which must be taken in the same Action Phase as the Drain Resistance Test. The character must be physically able to move and/or speak freely in order to center, and may attract attention to herself. Centering techniques include acts such as chanting in Latin, dancing, making arcane gestures, and so on.

So, a grade 100 initiate would get 100 dice on Drain Resistance as long as she can center herself.

[The_Gun_Nut]

So they can double-dip into resistance, essentially putting drain in the "who cares" column.

You were right the first time.  It was the Fourth Age.  The Fifth Age is our age, today.

Of course, not for very much longer.  The Sixth World is right around the corner.

[FastJack]

Actually, the Fifth Age is the low-mana point. Fourth Age was Earthdawn, that's why I corrected myself.

[inca1980]

It turns out that there are a group of Immortal Elves that, along with the Great Dragons, have been around since the Fourth Age*. No one's really sure how they became immortal, but they are. First introduced in the Harlequin campaign book, they've been popping up in Shadowland and such ever since (Jane Foster, the main protagonist in the Dawn of the Artifacts adventures is the newest edition to the group, being Ehran the Scribe's daughter and Harlequin's protégé.

So, welcome, enjoy the soykaf and remember, a wise man once said, "Watch your back, conserve ammo, and never cut a deal with a Dragon."

I was under the impression that Immortal Elves were simply elves that survived through the 5th age without being persecuted and burned at a stake for being witches ....correct me if i'm wrong.  I mean, no more elves could be born because the awakened DNA was in-active.  I don't really know much about pre-sixth world history, so I don't even know what happened to all the metas of the 4th age....did they just turn into humans, or did they just die out slowly because they couldn't replenish their numbers?  If the latter is true, then the elven population would just taper off as they slowly died of non-natural causes throughout the 5th age.  Wouldn't the immortal elves be the ones who managed to stay on the down-low and basically survive the 5th age.  Of course during this time period they would have no magic attribute so I assume they would just get back the powers they had at the end of the 4th age at the beginning of the sixth age.  Weren't the immortal elves also around to protect the dragons while they slept?  

One cool idea would be that you can spot an immortal elf because a lot of them cut off their ear tips to blend in during the 5th age.....so they would be elves with round ears with a scar at the top!  I think i'm gonna use that idea....does anyone know if this works?.....It won't work if Immortal Elves simply morphed back into looking like humans during the 5th age.  This idea would also still work if all the meta's just died at the end of the 4th age.....and immortal elves found a way to circumvent this.  If Meta's just turned to dust at the end of the 4th age then that would explain the lack of a ton of fossils being found.  

[etherial]

I don't really know much about pre-sixth world history, so I don't even know what happened to all the metas of the 4th age....did they just turn into humans, or did they just die out slowly because they couldn't replenish their numbers?

In Earthdawn, T'Skrang and Windlings are suffering from negative population growth.

[FastJack]

The didn't quite "morph" back into humans, but they were able to hide themselves among humanity without cutting off their ears. Most elves in the Earthdawn era were just like elves today. Their lifespan may be in the hundreds of years (no one's really saying exactly how long they live). Only a small fraction of elves are truly "immortal".

Likewise, the other races didn't morph back, but as the mana-level fell, more and more human babies were born to the other races (except, of course, Obsidamen, Windlings and T'skrang, later on that). As the older generations died off, people lost their "race".

The Obsidamen most likely rejoined their liferocks and "fell asleep" as the mana-level dropped. They may be back at a certain point in the future. No one really knows.

The Windlings have become Pixies in the Sixth World. Not sure where they went in the low mana-cycle (maybe they hid and have been here all along), and nothing's really been said of it.

T'skrang *shrug* I honestly have no idea. Maybe they reverted to human form, maybe they died out. Some SURGE traits can say that their genetics still exist in metahumanity, but nothing's been mentioned.

[The_Gun_Nut]

Some of the Immortal Elves are holdouts from the 2nd Age, the Age of Dragons.  Those folks are truly old.  Isn't DaVinci an IE from the 2nd age?

[Nomad Zophiel]

So, a grade 100 initiate would get 100 dice on Drain Resistance as long as she can center herself.

Yes, and still die. Let's say Drain in this case is a fairly normal non=overcasting Force/2, or 50S. 25-33 of that can be sucked up by 100 dice of drain resistance. Result, unconsciousness at best.