[decPL]

@DMK

Not that I'm fond of the current rules (and I'm also AFB), but isn't your interpretation suggesting that using a penetrating weapon deals less damage to both the barrier (just a single point) and the target behind it (whatever passed barrier's resistance but further reduced by 1)?

[DMK]

While you're doing less damage to the barrier, you are still doing more damage to the target with a Penetrating Weapon.. The key portion is this paragraph from the Shooting Through Barriers rule:

If the barrier takes the hit first, the gamemaster rolls
Structure + Armor to resist the damage, and the structure
takes any unresisted damage. If the Structure rating
is exceeded by the damage it suffers, any remaining
damage is transferred to the target behind the barrier.

So, the Barrier soaks up all the unresisted damage until it exceeds the Structure Rating. So with Ballistic Glass, say, the glass would soak up four damage before any transmits to the target.

With the Penetrating Weapons rule, the Barrier only takes one box of the unresisted damage, not all of it up to Structure Rating. So the target ends up taking more of the damage.

Which makes sense. If you shoot a bullet through glass, it leaves a small hole (and spiderwebs.) That's a penetrating weapon. If you try to hit someone behind glass with a baseball bat, you're going to be doing less damage to whoever's standing there.

[decPL]

That was the interpretation I was considering after I've posted.

Logical and simple. Under my understanding this is RAW; even if someone proves otherwise, I'd be inclined to use this.

Thanks!

[Erling]

Well, it makes sense. I don't know if it's RAW or not, but sounds good (and also can appear to be the intended way of handling the situation). Damage is resisted normally with Structure+Armor, but a single bullet can't damage Structure too much, so target behind the cover will take (Modified DV - resistance roll hits - 1) from SS/SA. Thus dataterm will provide at least about 4 boxes of damage reduction.

As for me, I think that's not enough (I believe defender behind full cover must be able to roll Rea+Int as well), but that's certainly better than flat -1 damage reduction .

[martinchaen]

DMK
That's a really neat interpretation, thanks for putting it forth. I'll be using this in my game from now on.

[DMK]

I still think there's some definite room for houserules with Full Cover though. The Blind Fire modifier doesn't make a lot of sense to me, because when you combine it with the "Defender is Unaware of the Attack:" caveat, it's still way too easy to hit somebody.

Myself, I'd rule that when shooting at someone who's behind full cover, your net hits don't add to DV. I don't think net hits & Barriers work terribly well together anyways. So you're better with a gun... how does that map to getting through a kevlar wall? If it's that you identify a weak spot due to skill, doesn't that increase the chance you're going to miss entirely because you're aiming at the weak spot and not where you think your target is standing/sitting/whatever?

The way I'd do it is this: if the Defender is behind full cover, the Attacker rolls as normal, with the Blind Fire penalty. Net hits do not apply to DV. Either your gear can cut through the wall or it can't. Then roll a dice pool of your Hits on the Attack test vs. the Defender's Edge. If your skill at determining where the Defender would be beats the Defender's luck, congrats! You've managed to hit a guy you can't see through a wall. I even think that applying the net hits from the second test to the post-barrier DV would be fair.

Complicated, I know. Probably has some bugs in it I haven't found yet. But it's my first pass.

[Xenon]

Speed 》Realism

Shot a target that is fully behind furniture:
Resolve the attack with blind fire modifier opposed by 4 dice.
Target resist modified DV-1 with body + modified Armor rating + 10 dice from furniture.
Done.

Shot target that spend simple action to Take Good Cover behind furniture;
Resolve attack with no negative modifiers and target get a positive modifier to his defense of 4 dice from his Take Cover action.
Tie goes to attacker but in that case DV is reduced by one and target resist with 10 extra dice.
If attacker get at least one net hit then target take modified DV that is not reduced by one and don't get 10 extra soak dice.
Done.

[Erling]

I even think that applying the net hits from the second test to the post-barrier DV would be fair.

That can eventually result in 0+net hits, and thus there will never be a zero (if attacker has won the Opposed Test) But I assume you meant adding net hits from Opposed Test only if base DV wasn't completely stopped by cover.

I would prefer following houserule. Attacker rolls Weapon Skill+Intuition-6 (an idea from SR4A; wiz 9-Agi cyberlimbs can't help you if you're "blind"), defender rolls Rea+Int+4. Other rules applied as in rulebook.

Target resist modified DV-1 with body + modified Armor rating + 10 dice from furniture.

BTW it possibly contradicts example Shooting Through A Barrier from p. 198.

[Xenon]

BTW it possibly contradicts example Shooting Through A Barrier from p. 198.

Both* examples contradicts the rules they are trying to clarify so i would not spend to much attention to them to be honest

(* In "Damaging  a Barrier" Wombat use full auto but still only cause 1 box of damage while Penetration Weapons state When multiple rounds are fired at a barrier, the damage increases to 2 boxes for 3 bullets, 3 boxes for six bullets, and 4 boxes for 10 bullets.)

[Ryo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cix07R1vlhI

This is why the Penetration Weapons rule exists. Walls really do not do much at all to stop bullets, especially on larger caliber rounds.

[martinchaen]

Ryo
I'd argue that the rules for penetrating weapons are too overly simplified, however, because firing a round through a material, almost regardless of what it is (even something as brittle as glass), has the potential to damage and/or alter the trajectory of the projectile.

One of the things impressed upon us over and over again at Sniper School was that you never shoot through something unless you absolutely have to, and we were using .338 caliber rounds, a significantly heavier round that pretty much any handgun load.

Sure, a .45ACP will punch through most residential material, but it's not even nearly guaranteed to do so without the penetration a) reducing ballistic performance (typically through some of the projectile's kinetic energy being lost), and b) impacting the projectile somehow (even a small impact on trajectory can cause the projectile to go wide, or to cause it to fragment).

My point is this; a simple -1 DV reduction for firing a single round through ANYTHING at all (up to and including Security Doors, Armored Glass, Brick, Plastcrete, Concrete, and even metal beams) is just not representative of the effect I'd like to see this action incur.

As such, while RAW certainly is confusing, I'll stick with the below and (somewhat) disregard the Penetrating Weapons rules.

In the case of Penetrating Weapons, the Barrier still rolls Structure + Armor (modified by AP) to resist the DV of of the attack. However, the Barrier Structure only takes 1 DV (+1 for every multiple of 3 bullets fired through the barrier) regardless of the result of the resistance roll, but the resistance roll does modify the DV of the attack accordingly. If the DV of the attack after the resistance roll exceeds the barrier's AV, the attack passes through the structure and affects the target (if the attack hit, of course) with the modified DV.

Assuming an Ares Alpha with APDS ammunition and 4 net hits on the attack (15P -6 AP) firing a single round, this actually works out pretty well. Using mathematical averages and rounding: http://anydice.com/program/4479
Fragile Material (SR 1, AV 2-6); 1 die to resist, 0.33 hits on average, 15-0=15, which is greater than AV0; attack succeeds, Structure takes 1DV, 14P is applied to target
Cheap Material (SR 2, AV 4-6); 2 dice to resist, 0.67 hits on average, 15-1=13, which is greater than AV0; attack succeeds, Structure takes 1DV, 13P is applied to target
Average Material (SR 4, AV 6-6); 4 dice to resist, 1.33 hits on average, 15-1=13, which is greater than AV0; attack succeeds, Structure takes 1DV, 13P is applied to target
Heavy Material (SR 6, AV 8-6); 8 dice to resist, 2.67 hits on average, 15-3=12, which is greater than AV2; attack succeeds, Structure takes 1DV, 11P is applied to target
Reinforced Material (SR 8, AV 12-6); 14 dice to resist, 4.67 hits on average, 15-5=10, which is greater than AV6; attack succeeds, Structure takes 1DV, 9P is applied to target
Structural Material (SR 10, AV 16-6); 20 dice to resist, 6.67 hits on average,15-7=8, which is less than AV10; attack fails, Structure takes 1DV
Heavy Structural Material (SR 12, AV 20-6); 24 dice to resist, 8 hits on average, 15-8=7, which is less than AV14; attack fails, Structure takes 1DV
Armored/Reinforced Material (SR 14, AV 24-6); 32 dice to resist, 10.67 hits on average, 15-11=4, which is less than AV18; attack fails, Structure takes 1DV

This makes it all the more difficult to successfully fire through materials like brick and plastcrete (what I'd consider common building materials), and tougher materials like concrete, metal beams, reinforced concrete, and blast bunkers becomes nearly impervious to small-arms fire. This also substantially increases the value of good cover, which I find is a very desirable outcome for tactical purposes. No longer is hiding behind cover a terrible (TM) idea, but it might stop you from getting killed on a regular basis. Of course, what applies to the player applies to the NPCs

Now, the above was mathematical averages; if we do the same with the Buying Hits rule (which I would personally use), it looks like this:
Fragile Material (SR 1, AV 2-6); 1 die to resist, 0 hits, 15-0=15, which is greater than AV0; attack succeeds, Structure takes 1DV, 14P is applied to target
Cheap Material (SR 2, AV 4-6); 2 dice to resist, 0 hits, 15-0=15, which is greater than AV0; attack succeeds, Structure takes 1DV, 14P is applied to target
Average Material (SR 4, AV 6-6); 4 dice to resist, 1 hits, 15-1=14, which is greater than AV0; attack succeeds, Structure takes 1DV, 13P is applied to target
Heavy Material (SR 6, AV 8-6); 8 dice to resist, 2 hits, 15-2=13, which is greater than AV2; attack succeeds, Structure takes 1DV, 12P is applied to target
Reinforced Material (SR 8, AV 12-6); 14 dice to resist, 3 hits, 15-3=12, which is greater than AV6; attack succeeds, Structure takes 1DV, 11P is applied to target
Structural Material (SR 10, AV 16-6); 20 dice to resist, 5 hits,15-5=10, which is equal to AV10; attack fails, Structure takes 1DV
Heavy Structural Material (SR 12, AV 20-6); 26 dice to resist, 6 hits, 15-6=9, which is less than AV14; attack fails, Structure takes 1DV
Armored/Reinforced Material (SR 14, AV 24-6); 32 dice to resist, 8 hits, 15-8=7, which is less than AV18; attack fails, Structure takes 1DV

Not only does this positively affect the value of good cover, it also dramatically increases the effectiveness of dedicated AV weapons like heavy sniper rifles and assault cannons.

Assuming the Barret M122 from R&G firing APDS rounds with 4 net hits (18P, -10 AP), the table looks like this:
Fragile Material (SR 1, AV 2-10); 1 die to resist, 0 hits, 18-0=18, which is greater than AV0; attack succeeds, Structure takes 1DV, 18P is applied to target
Cheap Material (SR 2, AV 4-10); 2 dice to resist, 0 hits, 18-0=18, which is greater than AV0; attack succeeds, Structure takes 1DV, 18P is applied to target
Average Material (SR 4, AV 6-10); 4 dice to resist, 1 hits, 18-1=17, which is greater than AV0; attack succeeds, Structure takes 1DV, 16P is applied to target
Heavy Material (SR 6, AV 8-10); 6 dice to resist, 1 hits, 18-1=17, which is greater than AV2; attack succeeds, Structure takes 1DV, 16P is applied to target
Reinforced Material (SR 8, AV 12-10); 10 dice to resist, 2 hits, 18-2=16, which is greater than AV6; attack succeeds, Structure takes 1DV, 15P is applied to target
Structural Material (SR 10, AV 16-10); 16 dice to resist, 4 hits,18-4=14, which is greater than AV10; attack fails, Structure takes 1DV, 13P is applied to target
Heavy Structural Material (SR 12, AV 20-10); 22 dice to resist, 5 hits, 18-5=13, which is less than AV14; attack fails, Structure takes 1DV
Armored/Reinforced Material (SR 14, AV 24-10); 28 dice to resist, 6 hits, 18-6=12, which is less than AV18; attack fails, Structure takes 1DV

Add in APDS special properties like the Bulls-Eye Double-Tap/Burst, which the Barret is capable of, and you can potentially inflict 14P+net hits -(6*3)+4=-22AP shots, potentially completely negating even Armored and/or Reinforced materials with this kind of specialized weapon. To my mind, this is far more "realistic" than simply "the bullet passes through the material, subtract 1 from the DV" rule as it seems RAW indicates should be used. If you do use this rule, it means that even a single hit on the attack (14+1=15P, -10 AP) with a Barret M122 will penetrate Armored/Reinforced Material with only a single point of reduction in DV; that's blindly firing a round through reinforced concrete, and still doing upwards of 93% damage to your target.


TL;DR
Full cover doesn't have to be screwed, if you don't want it to as a GM...

[Shinobi Killfist]

I still think there's some definite room for houserules with Full Cover though. The Blind Fire modifier doesn't make a lot of sense to me, because when you combine it with the "Defender is Unaware of the Attack:" caveat, it's still way too easy to hit somebody.

Myself, I'd rule that when shooting at someone who's behind full cover, your net hits don't add to DV. I don't think net hits & Barriers work terribly well together anyways. So you're better with a gun... how does that map to getting through a kevlar wall? If it's that you identify a weak spot due to skill, doesn't that increase the chance you're going to miss entirely because you're aiming at the weak spot and not where you think your target is standing/sitting/whatever?

The way I'd do it is this: if the Defender is behind full cover, the Attacker rolls as normal, with the Blind Fire penalty. Net hits do not apply to DV. Either your gear can cut through the wall or it can't. Then roll a dice pool of your Hits on the Attack test vs. the Defender's Edge. If your skill at determining where the Defender would be beats the Defender's luck, congrats! You've managed to hit a guy you can't see through a wall. I even think that applying the net hits from the second test to the post-barrier DV would be fair.

Complicated, I know. Probably has some bugs in it I haven't found yet. But it's my first pass.

The blind fire rules are just bad, I mean really bad.

The rule should be if you move enough behind cover that you become completely unaware of the person shooting at you that unless they have some method of targeting your approximate location they just miss, its not blind fire -6 dice its shooting wildly.  On the other hand if you are behind full cover but you still have a general idea where the shooter is, just like they have a general idea where you are they are at -6 to shoot you and you receive your full dodge pool+ cover.  I'd assume with a combination of a quick peeks, periscopes, tac nets, hacked cameras people are usually at the general idea where the other guy is stage once a fight has started. 

For your house rule, I'd probably change that to a edge vs edge test.  Shooting blindly vs dodging blindly should be a luck vs luck not a skill vs luck test IMO. 

[Malevolence]

Armored/Reinforced Material (SR 14, AV 24-6); 32 dice to resist, 10.67 hits on average, 15-11=4, which is less than AV18; attack fails, Structure takes 1DV

In these cases, I wouldn't even have the structure take 1 DV. Otherwise you could wear down a bunker with a pistol by simply shooting at it 16 times. If the DV does not exceed the modified armor, then the attack is completely shrugged off by the barrier.

For your house rule, I'd probably change that to a edge vs edge test.  Shooting blindly vs dodging blindly should be a luck vs luck not a skill vs luck test IMO. 

I'd probably run it more like this:
1. The shooter must pick the 1m wide location he believes the target to be behind. If you are taking cover behind a wall that is 5m long, then he has a 1 in 5 chance of guessing right. If an NPC is shooting at a PC, the GM can roll using the NPC's Intuition + Wisdom (or Logic if the GM feels that would be more appropriate) with a threshold of the width of the barrier-1, so in our example of the 5m long wall, the threshold would be 4. If it is obvious where the target is (he is popping out one side to shoot before ducking back behind the barrier, the GM can skip the roll.
2. The shooter gets a regular attack at -6 per the rules.
3. The defender gets to defend with only his Intuition. He's aware of the general direction of an impending attack, but he can't really see where the attacker is aiming before he shoots, negating the split second bobbing and weaving that is described by the reaction component. However, he can use experience and gut feelings to keep low or stand sideways to reduce his profile, etc and try to predict where the attacker might try to shoot.
4. If the hit is successful and the modified DV exceeds the Modified AV of the barrier, the barrier gets a damage resist test that reduces the DV of the attack. If the remaining DV of the attack is 0 or less, it is stopped and the structure takes no damage.
5. Depending on the type of weapon:
  a. If it is a penetrating weapon: If the remaining DV from step 4 is 1 or more, then the barrier takes 1, 2, 3, or 4 DV to it's condition monitor (up to the remaining DV of the attack) per the rules in the book (further reducing the remaining DV) before the remaining DV is passed through to the target. If the remaining DV is 0 or less after the barrier has taken its damage, the attack is effectively stopped.
  b. If it is not a penetrating weapon, apply the remaining DV from step 4 to the barrier's condition monitor, reducing the DV for each point applied in this fashion. If the structure is exceeded, that portion of the barrier is destroyed and any remaining DV is applied to the target. Otherwise, the attack is stopped.

[faffner]

...
Heavy Structural Material (SR 12, AV 20-6); 24 dice to resist, 8 hits on average, 15-8=7, which is less than AV14; attack fails, Structure takes 1DV
...
Fragile Material (SR 1, AV 2-10); 1 die to resist, 0 hits, 18-0=18, which is greater than AV0; attack succeeds, Structure takes 1DV, 18P is applied to target
Cheap Material (SR 2, AV 4-10); 2 dice to resist, 0 hits, 18-0=18, which is greater than AV0; attack succeeds, Structure takes 1DV, 18P is applied to target
Average Material (SR 4, AV 6-10); 4 dice to resist, 1 hits, 18-1=17, which is greater than AV0; attack succeeds, Structure takes 1DV, 16P is applied to target
Heavy Material (SR 6, AV 8-10); 6 dice to resist, 1 hits, 18-1=17, which is greater than AV2; attack succeeds, Structure takes 1DV, 16P is applied to target
Reinforced Material (SR 8, AV 12-10); 10 dice to resist, 2 hits, 18-2=16, which is greater than AV6; attack succeeds, Structure takes 1DV, 15P is applied to target
Structural Material (SR 10, AV 16-10); 16 dice to resist, 4 hits,18-4=14, which is greater than AV10; attack fails, Structure takes 1DV, 13P is applied to target
Heavy Structural Material (SR 12, AV 20-10); 22 dice to resist, 5 hits, 18-5=13, which is less than AV14; attack fails, Structure takes 1DV
Armored/Reinforced Material (SR 14, AV 24-10); 28 dice to resist, 6 hits, 18-6=12, which is less than AV18; attack fails, Structure takes 1DV
...

(Italy,Bold is mine)

There seem to be some copy&paste mishaps. e.g.AV12-10 = 2 and so on...
The APDS round fired from a sniper rifle is likely to pass through
'Heavy Structural Material 12 20
Example: concrete, metal beam'

Other point: I would not consider the 'buying hits'-rule for barriers because barriers have nothing to gain from shortcutting tests, because they are not player characters. I think this rule should be used in cases like:
Ok you want to cut short a test? Do it, you will succeed, but live with reduced hits.