[Xenon]

Hit the dirt = defender prone = +2 dice
Alternative is to spend simple action to lay down (already spend free on running in my example)

In my example adept is running (not in full cover)
Take cover stack with running.

[Lucean]

p. 189 gives a -2 penalty for being prone.
You can count as having cover for being prone and have a certain distance to the attacker, though. But getting prone behind cover would not increase that bonus.

[Xenon]

No.... -2 to defend from p.189 does not apply to ranged combat (except maybe at very close range,  like 5 meters).

I am talking about the positive modifier to defend you get from Good Cover; This modifier can also apply to prone targets that are at least twenty meters away from their attackers

(Earlier I thought it was only +2 dice for spending a simple action to lay down in addition to the +2 to defend and -2 to get hit from being considered running, but it turned out to be +4. This mean you get more cover from "[standing up +] run + laying down" then you get from "running +sprinting").


Yes, prone behind cover does not stack (but I never claimed that)
I typed running in combination with one of the three options 1) prone 2) cover or 3) sprint

[Erling]

Yes, turning your back against the shooter is a bad idea when you have 12 dice to avoid getting hit... Go out there and dodge bullets will ya! 

For even more protection the adept can run (free; -2 to hit him, +2 to defend) in combination with hit the dirt (interrupt; another +2 to defend), take cover (simple; another +2 or +4 to defend) or sprint (complex; another -2 to hit him).

If you are going behind full cover you need a way to still see your attacker (maybe an augmented reality overlay image feed from your long range sniper drone or the camera feed from your own smartgun -that btw also let you return fire around corners without having to take the blind fire modifier).

An alternative to cover if you want your opponent to get the blind fire modifier is to cast an invisibility spell (complex [or simple for reckless]; -6 to hit him) or maybe have the decker turn off the lights while you activate thermographic vision vision enhancement, ultrasound sensor headware or astral perception...

Looks like I misunderstood your comment. At first I thought you suggest stacking full cover with additional Take Cover.

[Xenon]

No worries. I can see now how it can be read that way.



mm... what can you stack with Take Cover....

Creating or increasing an environmental modifier (smoke grenade, turn off the light or creating a strong glare) or have the magician cast invisibility (akin to a -6 total darkness environmental modifier) would make you even harder to hit by melee and ranged attacks.

Send your melee adept into melee combat with the ranged opponent will make it harder for him to hit you with ranged attacks while you hunker down in cover.

Creating enough noise to disable the wireless bonus of your ranged opponents smartgun would make you slightly harder to hit.

Already considered running when you spend your simple action to take cover make you harder to hit and  also give you bonus to defend against the attack.

Taking cover in a moving vehicle make it easier to defend against the attack than if you take cover behind something stationary.

Spending 10 initiative score on full defense let you add willpower to all your defense tests.

[Erling]

Well... Thank you for your narration, but it's quite far from topic, isn't it? As I said, those variants don't negate the fact the full cover is screwed in SR5 

[DMK]

I think that the main problem with the penetrating weapon rules is that "bulletproof" materials don't stop much in the way of bullets. Some examples:

Ballistic Glass (armor 6): Light pistols have a base DV starting at 6P, with a minimum of 1 net hit makes 7P DV, which penetrates the bulletproof glass and does 6P to the original target. This is, aside from hold out pistols, the lightest weapon available.

Hmnn.

I think things might not be as bad as all that. I was just re-reading the Barriers section.

Penetrating weapons is a modification of the Shooting Through Barriers rules. With Shooting Through Barriers, step 1 is, is the Weapon's DV higher then the modifed Armor of the Barrier? If yes, then resist the damage by rolling Structure + Armor.

Now, if you don't have a Penetrating Weapon, you have to get past the Structural Rating of the Material. Otherwise the Barrier absorbs all the unresisted damage.

If you do have a Penetrating Weapon, the Barrier only takes one box of the unresisted damage, or 0 if your GM is feeling nasty. The rest go through.

So, against your 6P light pistol, yes, it can get through Ballistic Glass. Let's say you get 4 hits, dead average on 12 dice. So that's 10P. The glass is resisting with 10 dice, so that's probably 3 hits, for 7P. Subtract 1 box, and you're looking at 6P again. Not quite as bad as what you were postulating, where the defender is looking at 6P from only one success on the roll.

Of course, with glass, you still get your defense test. So in that case if you hit, the glass is effectively giving you another plus 10 armor.

Kevlar wallboard would be better. In that case, the barrier is resisting with 20 dice. So, your 12 DV gets resisted with an average of 6 successes and gets knocked down to 6DV, with an AP of  -1. Still not great, but more survivable then getting hit directly.


 

[Erling]

DMK, the problem is under RAW Penetrating Weapons rule is a specific one, so you should use it instead of rolling Structure+Armor.

Sure, it could be intended that you roll Structure+Armor and then Structure takes only 1 box from ((modified DV) - (structure+armor roll hits)) for SS/SA, 2 boxes for SA-burst/BF etc., but... It's not RAW, it's RAI. Maybe.

[TimTurry]

So if I understand this right, when faced with anyone who has > 6 of defense dice, you need to bring out your folding changing screen (like the ones in the doctor's office you change behind) and set it up in front of you, then shoot blind through it, for an increased chance of hitting the target?

[DMK]

DMK, the problem is under RAW Penetrating Weapons rule is a specific one, so you should use it instead of rolling Structure+Armor.

Sure, it could be intended that you roll Structure+Armor and then Structure takes only 1 box from ((modified DV) - (structure+armor roll hits)) for SS/SA, 2 boxes for SA-burst/BF etc., but... It's not RAW, it's RAI. Maybe.

Actually, I'm pretty sure it's RAW.

Penetration Weapons
If the weapon you’re using is primarily a penetrating
weapon, like a firearm or a pointed sword, then the barrier
takes 1 box of unresisted damage (or no damage at
all at the gamemaster’s discretion), allowing the rest to
transfer to the target behind it.

The bold emphasis is mine. My question is: how can the Barrier be taking 1 box of unresisted damage if there hasn't been a resistance test as described in Shooting Through Barriers on pg 197?

[Ryo]

My question is: how can the Barrier be taking 1 box of unresisted damage if there hasn't been a resistance test as described in Shooting Through Barriers on pg 197?

I would counter that question with the opposite question: How can you take unresisted damage if you rolled to resist? 'Unresisted Damage' tends to imply a situation where you do not get to roll to resist, like in the case of Allergies, Drug crashes, stim patches and so forth.

[decPL]

So if I understand this right, when faced with anyone who has > 6 of defense dice, you need to bring out your folding changing screen (like the ones in the doctor's office you change behind) and set it up in front of you, then shoot blind through it, for an increased chance of hitting the target?

Attach a camera to the side facing the enemy (preferably somewhere near the top, to avoid shooting through it) and you've got a setup that's usable against all enemies (and if I interpret this correctly, it'd allow you to get full cover against enemies, while retaining your defense roll - you are aware of everything going on the other side after all). Heck - design some sort of harness for it so that you don't need to use a hand for it/spend time setting this up.

Ares VelvetPro Smart Cover System (TM), firefights with a dash of fashion! Available in black, pink and urban camo; while supplies last.

[Xenon]

Reckless cast invisibility on yourself.
Shot your target with a firearm (or indirect combat spell)

You see your target
Your target can't see you

You can attack your target just fine
You can defend against attacks from your target

Target get blind fire to attack you
Target does not get to defend against your attack


gg

[decPL]

Reckless cast invisibility on yourself.
Shot your target with a firearm (or indirect combat spell)

You see your target
Your target can't see you

You can attack your target just fine
You can defend against attacks from your target

Target get blind fire to attack you
Target does not get to defend against your attack


gg

A neat alternative, though:

1. With magicians being pretty rare, this is probably a more costly option. If you're a magician yourself, it's still drain (especially for reckless casting) + sustaining spell.
2. There's a chance someone will see through your magic illusion, less chance to see through a physical, opaque object.
3. It's not nearly as cool as running with a tricked-out shower curtain in front of you.
4. Does not make 'full cover' any less flawed (not that the problem with full cover is game breaking; it's simply silly).

[DMK]

My question is: how can the Barrier be taking 1 box of unresisted damage if there hasn't been a resistance test as described in Shooting Through Barriers on pg 197?

I would counter that question with the opposite question: How can you take unresisted damage if you rolled to resist? 'Unresisted Damage' tends to imply a situation where you do not get to roll to resist, like in the case of Allergies, Drug crashes, stim patches and so forth.

Ryo, I know that in Shadowrun specific outweighs general, but in this case you have the Shooting Through Barriers procedure, which clearly lays out what unresisted damage is in the case of barriers: the damage after the resistance test.

If the barrier takes the hit first, the gamemaster rolls
Structure + Armor to resist the damage, and the structure
takes any unresisted damage.

So when the Penetrating Weapons section comes along, which is talking about Shooting Through Barriers with specific weapon types, why would I believe that suddenly the authors are using a different definition for unresisted damage then the one they established two sections & one page ago?