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ares monosword?

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JimmyCrisis

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« Reply #15 on: (19:47:21/07-17-14) »
It would be easy enough to houserule all melee weapons using your physical limit.  They probably should, anyway.

While a pistol will have its own inherent accuracy limits, melee is much more about the wielder of the weapon.

Phys lim ~9 troll/whatever, with a STR+3 DV weapon and enough dice to hit his limit would be very very powerful

Exactly as powerful as the same troll with titanium bone lacing or bone density bioware.

I'd be a little more concerned by the troll with the claymore, but trolls aren't stellar with their agility.

MijRai

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« Reply #16 on: (19:48:52/07-17-14) »
Physical Limit is a bit much, in my opinion.  Imagine that troll over there, with 10-11 for his Physical Limit, before Limit enhancers.  Combine that with a Combat Axe.  Not a pretty sight.  Even without optimization, that can get to be a big number very quickly, and big weapons aren't uncommon.  Even with an unaugmented cap of 5 on troll agility...
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?

JimmyCrisis

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« Reply #17 on: (19:52:20/07-17-14) »
You're talking about a character who already spent his B on metatype.  Maxing their stats is going to cause deficiencies elsewhere, even if they are God of the Axe.

Also, aren't trolls supposed to be scarry?  I hazard to say that's the point.

MijRai

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« Reply #18 on: (20:05:30/07-17-14) »
B on Metatype doesn't preclude A on attributes, which is a big thing.  28/2 skill points isn't half bad either.

And there's a difference between scary and over-powered.  A troll using his Physical Limit for melee weapons is treading water close to the far end. 
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?

Ryo

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« Reply #19 on: (20:21:30/07-17-14) »
Just straight Physical Limit isn't a good idea, but I do think melee should be based on a modifier of the Physical limit. Straight Physical for average weapons, Physical Limit +1 for weapons that are especially accurate and balanced, and Physical Limit -1 to -3 for heavy and unwieldy weapons, like a Combat Axe.

MijRai

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« Reply #20 on: (20:47:01/07-17-14) »
Just straight Physical Limit isn't a good idea, but I do think melee should be based on a modifier of the Physical limit. Straight Physical for average weapons, Physical Limit +1 for weapons that are especially accurate and balanced, and Physical Limit -1 to -3 for heavy and unwieldy weapons, like a Combat Axe.

I was actually thinking something along those lines, I just couldn't think of a good modifier table.  Of course, it automatically makes me think of the 2007? 'Shadowrun' video game, when the troll is swinging around that relatively tiny katana one-handed.
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?

JimmyCrisis

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« Reply #21 on: (20:48:06/07-17-14) »
Just straight Physical Limit isn't a good idea, but I do think melee should be based on a modifier of the Physical limit. Straight Physical for average weapons, Physical Limit +1 for weapons that are especially accurate and balanced, and Physical Limit -1 to -3 for heavy and unwieldy weapons, like a Combat Axe.

Something like that, yeah.
B on Metatype doesn't preclude A on attributes, which is a big thing.  28/2 skill points isn't half bad either.

And there's a difference between scary and over-powered.  A troll using his Physical Limit for melee weapons is treading water close to the far end. 

And that troll has either a D or an E for magic/cyber, so no strength/agility enhancement.

Edit: Also, overpowered?  Being able to kill something isn't overpowered, even if there's no one who can go toe-to-toe with that troll.  There exist plenty of ways to deal with that character, either with heavy ordinance or magic.  He's comparable to a sniper that can't hide and has to be within 3 meters of a target to hit.
« Last Edit: (20:56:41/07-17-14) by JimmyCrisis »

MijRai

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« Reply #22 on: (20:52:39/07-17-14) »
And that troll has either a D or an E for magic/cyber, so no strength/agility enhancement.

Incorrect. 50-70k nuyen will get some good stuff, as would 2 Power Points, or even Aspected towards Spellcasting; Health spell focus on the attribute buffs. 
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?

JimmyCrisis

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« Reply #23 on: (20:57:36/07-17-14) »
And that troll has either a D or an E for magic/cyber, so no strength/agility enhancement.

Incorrect. 50-70k nuyen will get some good stuff, as would 2 Power Points, or even Aspected towards Spellcasting; Health spell focus on the attribute buffs. 

So a point or two of agility or strength, but no initiative boosts, and no karma.  Sounds like street drugs or nothing.

MijRai

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« Reply #24 on: (21:06:37/07-17-14) »
So a point or two of agility or strength, but no initiative boosts, and no karma.  Sounds like street drugs or nothing.

Or, Improved Reflexes 1, Agility Boost 2, plus whatever a mentor might give them (there's a couple useful ones for close combat adepts), and that route leaves 20 Karma for whatever else they want. 

I'm not the one to talk to on 'ware prices, although 70k nuyen should be able to get a troll some useful stuff, and they'd still have 15 Karma left. 

Street drugs are not the only option, in other words. 
Would you want to go into a place where the resident had a drum-fed shotgun and can see in the dark?

JimmyCrisis

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« Reply #25 on: (22:51:25/07-17-14) »
Sorry, I meant edge, not karma.

Still, that character build is entirely not a problem.  Let the troll munchkin have his power fantasy,  he's just as susceptible to bullets, assault cannons, magic and mono whips as everyone else.

Considering I have very rarely seen an NPC or PC take an attack with a 11+ DV weapon and live, this guy doesn't do anything that can't be accomplished by another weapon.  He certainly won't be ending fights by himself with his low reaction, and I can't see his melee dice pools starting much higher than 16. 

His biggest asset is that he's too big to ignore, and he certainly isn't limiting out his attacks.

Leevizer

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« Reply #26 on: (01:00:31/07-18-14) »
It would be easy enough to houserule all melee weapons using your physical limit.  They probably should, anyway.

While a pistol will have its own inherent accuracy limits, melee is much more about the wielder of the weapon.

Phys lim ~9 troll/whatever, with a STR+3 DV weapon and enough dice to hit his limit would be very very powerful

But as they are written now, you need to be an Ork, Dwarf or a Troll Or heavily augmented. As the weapons are nowadays, every character I have seen is using Shock gloves or a Stun Baton since they don't need a massive investment in Strength to be useful. Save for that one melee adept with the combat axe.

Lucean

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« Reply #27 on: (01:21:26/07-18-14) »
There are far too many weapons that are functionally useless due to certain other weapons being way too good. Like the katana, for the most obvious example. But it's not just blades.
You say the Katana is too good? A twohanded weapon for that you need a Troll to even reach the Monowhip? And don't forget, that the Monowhip can be used in conjunction with a shield or a one-handed firearm for more flexibility.
A STR9 combatant had 8P AP-1 with a Katana in SR4, the Monowhip had +1 Reach and -3AP in comparison.
Now that STR9 guy does 12P AP-3 versus 12P AP-8 with the same base accuracy (due to the weird idea of using smartlink). Granted, now you can get higher dmg, but the needed investment is also growing. And this severe AP of the monowhip is golden against Hardened Armor.
With Fingertip compartment you don't even have concealability issues ... no, the Katana is not obviously too strong.

Ryo

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« Reply #28 on: (01:44:18/07-18-14) »
There are far too many weapons that are functionally useless due to certain other weapons being way too good. Like the katana, for the most obvious example. But it's not just blades.
You say the Katana is too good? A twohanded weapon for that you need a Troll to even reach the Monowhip? And don't forget, that the Monowhip can be used in conjunction with a shield or a one-handed firearm for more flexibility.
A STR9 combatant had 8P AP-1 with a Katana in SR4, the Monowhip had +1 Reach and -3AP in comparison.
Now that STR9 guy does 12P AP-3 versus 12P AP-8 with the same base accuracy (due to the weird idea of using smartlink). Granted, now you can get higher dmg, but the needed investment is also growing. And this severe AP of the monowhip is golden against Hardened Armor.
With Fingertip compartment you don't even have concealability issues ... no, the Katana is not obviously too strong.

Monowhip doesn't count, as its an exotic weapon that uses a completely different skill. You may as well compare the katana to a sniper rifle. Within the 'Blades' category, The katana is unmatched. The Combat axe is a close rival, but the low accuracy and high price hamstring it.

Poindexter

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« Reply #29 on: (01:47:23/07-18-14) »
Wow, so im taking these two pages to mean that there ISN'T any errata?
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