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Chicago v/s Magic

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Top Dog

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« Reply #60 on: <04-17-15/1444:36> »
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BC does not effect soak test unless you have the Mystic Armor power or have the Armor spell sustained, which will already be calculated when the spell is reduced in Force. No double penalty. It will not effect Drain unless you are using a Centering Foci.
I'm not sure you're right there. The spell is reduced, yes, but you still have a dice pool, used for a test, that's boosted by magic. Why wouldn't it double dip? Well, because that would be cruel for the mage, I guess. Still, the rules would indicate it would.
The drain pool wouldn't be affected unless it's boosted by magic (it's not penalized just because it's a drain pool). But Centering itself is a magical bonus - that would trigger the penalty too. As would other magical bonuses to the test (Improved Willpower or such).

Hibiki54

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« Reply #61 on: <04-17-15/1606:20> »
What you are suggesting makes no sense. Lets say I had 18 Armor and 24 with the Armor Spell Force 8. If I stand in a BC-2, the force would drop the spell Force to 6 which is already dropping the dice pool by 2.

In your suggestion, you are saying that a BC of 2 will drop a spell dice pool by 4, even though the dice pool for your total armor was already reduced to 22 from 24.

Tarislar

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« Reply #62 on: <04-17-15/1639:58> »
3) The spirit would receive a bonus to his limit, not the penalty - the spirit would be aligned as well. Though, as you say, it's not actually in it yet, so maybe not? Either way, it wouldn't matter, as the spirit's roll doesn't have a limit. Same for binding.

Are you sure about the spirit being aligned? 
The Caster is aligned in the example but doesn't say anything about the spirit.
Spirits can be summoned by different traditions so I'm not sure its going to "auto-align" itself every time instantly. 
Though I'd think that a long term bound spirit might acclimate itself if its around long enough.

Also, so your saying Spirits are not limited in their roll by their own Force?
So if you are binding a Force 4 spirit, and its rolling 8 dice, its allowed to score 5 hits? 
I don't think we've been playing it that way.
Admittedly I'm not sure we've come across an Over 50% roll either which is what it would take.



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5)  Your descriptions are off, and in a way the wrong way around.
Characters take a penalty equal to all tests boosted by magic, not just skill tests. That includes DR, Initiative, Drain, defense, whatnot (but only if the thing in question is boosted by magic).
DN/Astral character characters, however, "only" take a penalty to all actions. DR, initiative, drain and defense are not actions, so they take no penalty.
So it's different, but the other way around.
Really?   I heard PCs did in 4E but the 5E rules says its only for Skill Checks & not for Drain, Defense, Initiative, etc etc.
So I was wondering if that applied to DN/Astral beings as well.

Tarislar

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« Reply #63 on: <04-17-15/1643:14> »
BC does not effect soak test unless you have the Mystic Armor power or have the Armor spell sustained, which will already be calculated when the spell is reduced in Force. No double penalty. It will not effect Drain unless you are using a Centering Foci.
I know that is how it is for PCs.
I was just making sure its the same or not for DN/Astral beings.  Because for them it just says "any action" which made me wonder if that meant more than it does for Characters.

Tarislar

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« Reply #64 on: <04-17-15/1654:48> »
I'm not sure you're right there. The spell is reduced, yes, but you still have a dice pool, used for a test, that's boosted by magic. Why wouldn't it double dip? Well, because that would be cruel for the mage, I guess. Still, the rules would indicate it would.
The drain pool wouldn't be affected unless it's boosted by magic (it's not penalized just because it's a drain pool). But Centering itself is a magical bonus - that would trigger the penalty too. As would other magical bonuses to the test (Improved Willpower or such). 

I think this is a combo of 2 issues.
Sustained Spell Enters Background Count  v/s  Newly Cast spell while in Background Count.
Sustained = -BC Force.   Newly cast = -BC Dice Pool

So, a Force-6 Spell w/ 4 hits entering BGC 2 would not change its "Hits" at all.
While a Force-3 spell w/ 3 Hits doing the same would be reduced to 1 hit & force 1.

Meanwhile a newly cast spell in the BGC-2 would be at any force you wanted, but would have a dice pool penalty when casting.

At least that is how I'm reading it so far.

But to clarify, a newly cast spell in BGC doesn't "auto-reduce" its Force does it?  And if it does can you reference that?


Also, a follow up question.
There is a line about Foci not being able to be activated at all while in BGC.
Does this mean a Force-6 foci can not be "turned on" if its in BGC-1?   
Because that seems really powerful.
Especially since you get things like temporary background counts,  so basically you can't activate a foci while at a rally or concert?  Let alone a riot.
« Last Edit: <04-17-15/1656:30> by Tarislar »

Bull

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« Reply #65 on: <04-17-15/1809:28> »
Guys, be sure to check the Missions FAQ before diving in too far to these conversations.  At least a couple questions here have been answered in them:

Quote from: Missions FAQ
Can you clarify what tests Background Counts (p.30-33, Street Grimoire) affect?

Background Counts apply their modifiers to all Skill Tests that are being affected by magic in any way. This means casting spells, tests to activate adept powers, any test that is being augmented through a skill or attribute boost, etc.

The adept power Improved Reflexes increases your Reaction, and will affect any skill test based on reaction. However, Initiative is not a skill test, so you do not take any Background Count related penalties.

Drain is a damage resistance test, so likewise does not suffer Background Count penalties.

When discussing foci deactivating if the background count is higher than their Force, (p. 32, Street Grimoire) says that “A foci cannot activate while under the influence of the background count.” Can you clarify if that’s referring to all foci in general, or just foci whose Force is equal to or less than the background count?

Just ones that are equal to or less than the background count. Considering how often runners are in a background count for Shadowrun Missions: Chicago, it would be cruel to not let foci ever activate.

Also, Lothan the Wise is working on something to help the magically active in Chicago.  Dunno when it'll be done, as new magical research is tricky and prone to causing explosions, but he has a theory...

Tarislar

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« Reply #66 on: <04-17-15/1903:59> »
Doh.  And to think I have read that at least twice.  Totally spaced it.
Thanks Bull

Top Dog

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« Reply #67 on: <04-17-15/2205:43> »
Quote from: Missions FAQ
Can you clarify what tests Background Counts (p.30-33, Street Grimoire) affect?

Background Counts apply their modifiers to all Skill Tests that are being affected by magic in any way. This means casting spells, tests to activate adept powers, any test that is being augmented through a skill or attribute boost, etc.

The adept power Improved Reflexes increases your Reaction, and will affect any skill test based on reaction. However, Initiative is not a skill test, so you do not take any Background Count related penalties.

Drain is a damage resistance test, so likewise does not suffer Background Count penalties.

When discussing foci deactivating if the background count is higher than their Force, (p. 32, Street Grimoire) says that “A foci cannot activate while under the influence of the background count.” Can you clarify if that’s referring to all foci in general, or just foci whose Force is equal to or less than the background count?

Just ones that are equal to or less than the background count. Considering how often runners are in a background count for Shadowrun Missions: Chicago, it would be cruel to not let foci ever activate.
Welp, I should have looked for longer then 2 seconds in the FAQ (apparently ctrl-F lies when it said it wasn't mentioned).

I was looking at Street Grimoire, that says "any tests" are penalized, but the mission FAQ clarifies that to just skill tests, so at leasts for missions that's a lot less. And that means drain and armor rolls don't apply a penalty at all (except when a spell is reduced in force etc).

I know that is how it is for PCs.
I was just making sure its the same or not for DN/Astral beings.  Because for them it just says "any action" which made me wonder if that meant more than it does for Characters.
More, yes, but it's still only actions that get affected. Actions are things you do; so basically, skill tests. Dodging an attack is not an action, for example.

What you are suggesting makes no sense. Lets say I had 18 Armor and 24 with the Armor Spell Force 8. If I stand in a BC-2, the force would drop the spell Force to 6 which is already dropping the dice pool by 2.

In your suggestion, you are saying that a BC of 2 will drop a spell dice pool by 4, even though the dice pool for your total armor was already reduced to 22 from 24.
Well the clarification clarified that this doesn't apply to soak rolls (except the Force reduction), but this is still how it works for, say, Increased Ability.

If you have, say, Increased Agility (the spell) active on you at Force 4, and enter a BG count of 2, it gets reduced by 2, so your bonus gets reduced. But that means that you still have tests affected by magic (they get a +2 bonus), so all those skill rolls get reduced by 2. So in essence, they get reduced by 4 from what they were before the background count. So yes, it double dips - that's what people are complaining about.

Are you sure about the spirit being aligned? 
The Caster is aligned in the example but doesn't say anything about the spirit.
Spirits can be summoned by different traditions so I'm not sure its going to "auto-align" itself every time instantly. 
Though I'd think that a long term bound spirit might acclimate itself if its around long enough.

Also, so your saying Spirits are not limited in their roll by their own Force?
So if you are binding a Force 4 spirit, and its rolling 8 dice, its allowed to score 5 hits? 
I don't think we've been playing it that way.
Admittedly I'm not sure we've come across an Over 50% roll either which is what it would take.

Actually you're making me wonder about the alignment now. As I've understand it, when you summon a spirit, you summon a spirit of your tradition, not a generic "air spirit" - an air spirit of the Shamanistic tradition might have the same stats as an air spirit from a Hermetic tradition, but they're not actually the same thing. But then, the book isn't exactly clear on how that works. In fact, it's intentionally vague on that topic. It does say you're summoning a spirit "of your tradition", but does that mean it's aligned to your tradition or just that it's one of your 5 types?

Anyway, as to your other question (as spirits can still be aligned to a BG count in other ways): The test to resist being bound is:
Quote from: SR5 p 301
an Opposed Summoning + Magic [Force] v. spirit’s Force x 2,
No limit is listed for the spirit (limits are the things in square brackets), so there is no limit. Nor should there be one - limits usually only apply to skill tests, and this is a straight Force x 2. So if the spirit rolls 5 dice, yay for him. (Also, this isn't an action either, so it wouldn't be penalized in a negative aspected background count either).

Besides, why would the limit be Force anyway? Spirits don't usually use their Force as a limit, they have the usual Physical/Mental/Social limits. I don't think Spirits ever use their own Force as a limit.

--Sidenote--

Sadistic sidenote: does background count apply to skill tests penalized by magic? The rules and FAQ say "All Skill tests that are affected by magic in any way". If I cast, say, Chaos on someone, giving him a -4 penalty on everything, does he then get another -2 from a background count, as his tests are now "affected by magic"? It seems to be against the spirit of the rules, but a literal reading would have it apply. Something for FAQ/Errata perhaps?

Novocrane

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« Reply #68 on: <04-17-15/2251:10> »
I've always had the impression that the penalty presented by background counts was a binary situation. Are you rolling for a (skill - Missions) test linked to magic? Yes? Take the penalty. Currently affected by all the adept powers? Still the same penalty.

At the same time;
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In your suggestion, you are saying that a BC of 2 will drop a spell dice pool by 4[...]
Ignoring the spell specifics so we can assume the test is appropriate to the rule, I can see three things background counts do that could apply. (four if you include alchemy, but eh)

1. A background count impose a negative dice pool penalty equal to its rating for all (skill) tests linked in any way to magic

2. Dual-natured creatures or purely astral creatures take a negative dice pool penalty to all actions equal to the background count

3. Pre-existing active foci, sustained spells, quickened/anchored spells and rituals are reduced by the background count

If you walk into BGC Rating X with a sustained spell, the force drops by X (3.), and you suffer an X penalty for (skill) tests affected by magic. (1.)
« Last Edit: <04-19-15/0529:48> by Novocrane »

Tarislar

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« Reply #69 on: <04-18-15/0028:58> »
If you have, say, Increased Agility (the spell) active on you at Force 4, and enter a BG count of 2, it gets reduced by 2, so your bonus gets reduced. But that means that you still have tests affected by magic (they get a +2 bonus), so all those skill rolls get reduced by 2. So in essence, they get reduced by 4 from what they were before the background count. So yes, it double dips - that's what people are complaining about.
More importantly, is the Force now too low to even stay on you since the Agility spell has a minimum Force amount.
As I'm reading it the spell would drop & to get it back on you'd have to Re-cast it at a higher force to compensate.


Quote
Actually you're making me wonder about the alignment now. As I've understand it, when you summon a spirit, you summon a spirit of your tradition, not a generic "air spirit" - an air spirit of the Shamanistic tradition might have the same stats as an air spirit from a Hermetic tradition, but they're not actually the same thing. But then, the book isn't exactly clear on how that works. In fact, it's intentionally vague on that topic. It does say you're summoning a spirit "of your tradition", but does that mean it's aligned to your tradition or just that it's one of your 5 types?
I'm fairly certain it means "One of your Five".  Because it does say in the fluff that how the spirit will appear to you is based on your beliefs but that they are the same kind of spirit.  So its not a Hermatic-Air v/s a Shamanistic-Air,  its an Air spirit who might look like a Whirlwind to one summoner or a
Chinese Dragon to another or a Soaring Eagle to a third.  But that is all part of them conforming to your mental beliefs & not actually changing who they are.
That said, it sounds like it wouldn't matter because your saying it won't affect their resist-binding attempt since that is not a skill test (action).
Which is contrary to how Hibiki answered.


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Besides, why would the limit be Force anyway?
Dang good question.  For some reason I was thinking that limit worked both ways.  No idea.

SichoPhiend

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« Reply #70 on: <04-18-15/1207:41> »
If you have, say, Increased Agility (the spell) active on you at Force 4, and enter a BG count of 2, it gets reduced by 2, so your bonus gets reduced. But that means that you still have tests affected by magic (they get a +2 bonus), so all those skill rolls get reduced by 2. So in essence, they get reduced by 4 from what they were before the background count. So yes, it double dips - that's what people are complaining about.
More importantly, is the Force now too low to even stay on you since the Agility spell has a minimum Force amount.
As I'm reading it the spell would drop & to get it back on you'd have to Re-cast it at a higher force to compensate.

My understanding is that, yes it will drop if the spell is no longer valid.  If, in this case, the character has a base agility of 2, then the spell is still valid as the reduced force would equal or exceed it, but if the character has a base agility of 3 or 4, then the reduced force would be too low and the spell would fail as it is no longer valid.
However you would only need to recast it at force 4 within the BC, as the BC only reduces the force of existing spells that are brought into the BC, not the force of spells that are cast in the BC (That is accounted for by the die pool penalty of casting the spell.)

As you did ask for a reference on this Tarislar, here is the best I can do, p. 32 Street Grimoire, second paragraph of Background count rules,,,
Quote
Pre-existing active foci, sustained spells, quickened/anchored spells and rituals are reduced by the background count.

On a side note as discussed earlier, when the force is reduced, the hits rolled may be as well, but it is possible to break the spell's limit from the force with the use of reagents.  While it may not be too helpful on an increased attribute spell (because of the minimum needed to cast),  it can help on other spells.
For instance; Increased Reflexes.  If cast at force 4 and you get 4 hits, you get +4 to initiative and +2d6, but you then enter Chicago's BC of 2; force drops to 2, limit drops to 2, therefore your hits drop to 2 and your bonus goes to +2 to initiative and +1d6. 
Now if you had cast it using 4 reagents to set the limit, force drops to 2 but the limit stays at 4 (As currently BC does not effect reagents) and you keep the full bonus of +4 to initiative and +2d6.
This does also mean that the case of the agility 2 character with the force 4 increased agility could still benefit from using 4 reagents too, as entering the BD of 2 would reduce the force to 2 and the spell's force would still be legal, while the limit would remain at 4 and thus keep all 4 hits from the spell cast.

Reagent use is just the price of doin magic biz in Chicago...
A wise man once said that with increased intelligence comes the increased capacity to feel pain.
Therefore, if ignorance is bliss, enlightenment must be pure hell.

Tarislar

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« Reply #71 on: <04-18-15/2158:24> »
Morale of the story is, cast spells at high force if going into BGC  ;)

And yes, reagents will likely get burned a lot more.


jim1701

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« Reply #72 on: <04-29-15/1851:05> »
The morale of the story is geek you mage before you go into the the CZ because he's a bloody useless git.   >:(

Lucean

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« Reply #73 on: <04-30-15/0151:28> »
And this helps your team how?
Shortsighted actions often lead to dead runners ...

WillAsher

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« Reply #74 on: <05-07-15/0833:05> »
Background 2 isn't really all that bad.

I just ran a mission with a team of 3 mages and a sniper.  For about half the time we were running in Background 2.  It was a bit annoying, but not really crippling.  The only real issue we had with it was that the it shut down everyone's sustaining foci (Note to self, buy a Force 3-4 Sustaining Foci).  The two dice lost is less than one hit on average.  I have Focused Concentration 4, which let me keep my improved reflexes up.  We still made it out, and I managed to toast 4 mercs, the opposing mage, and a drone with a 12 Force Fireball (and not even knock myself out, thanks to an edge on the drain resist).  The biggest key is that it forces mages to be a bit more strategic in their casting.