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Chicago v/s Magic

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Southpaw

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« Reply #30 on: <07-28-14/1101:35> »
I always thought mages tended towards being freakishly powerful. I think a -2 penalty is a nice, dirty way to cut them down to size. It does really suck for adepts, though.

Bull

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« Reply #31 on: <07-28-14/2141:14> »
Having really high end BGC's, especially Mana Warps and Voids (12+ BGC) are very, very are, and players will have warning when they go into those areas.  A magical character will not be just wandering along and *bam* get hit with a 12+ void out of nowhere.  So they'll be able to avoid the problem areas and/or prepare themselves ahead of time. 

Tarislar

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« Reply #32 on: <11-17-14/2304:29> »
Now that the Grimoire has given us specifics.

I'm curious & asking again, for the Awakened players,  How is running in Missions-5 going?

Is it a serious problem?  How often are you tossed into even nastier areas?

SichoPhiend

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« Reply #33 on: <11-18-14/1115:05> »
My experiences thus far in Chicago are probably not as nasty as they could have been.  My cybermage has enough diversity that when the background count starts to go above 2 (which happens more often than I'd like) I'm not feeling like I'm being kept from doing what it is that I do.  However, I have sat at tables that the dedicated mages begin to feel completely useless because of the background count (this has happened to hackers as well through noise).

Of the pure mages that seem to have the easiest time with the higher BC areas, they seem to fall within two types, those that are capable of filling a secondary role or those that throw so much karma at raising their magical ability that the BC isn't that much of a hindrance.

I can't say which is better, they both have their merits.
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Raven2049

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« Reply #34 on: <11-18-14/2201:13> »
I have noticed on my Adept, that my abilities that i rely on that are based off of Qi Foci tend to go by by when the background count gets above 1-2. which i believe is most everywhere in the CZ if memory serves (minor places might not but main areas yes) mainly i remember that i can no longer use my Force 4 Qi Focus for Astral Perception. which really sucks when your trying to do astral combat....

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #35 on: <11-19-14/0540:32> »
I have noticed on my Adept, that my abilities that i rely on that are based off of Qi Foci tend to go by by when the background count gets above 1-2. which i believe is most everywhere in the CZ if memory serves (minor places might not but main areas yes) mainly i remember that i can no longer use my Force 4 Qi Focus for Astral Perception. which really sucks when your trying to do astral combat....
That impression seems incorrect for Missions. I played the raw versions of 5-02 and 5-03, and do not recall them throwing the Background Count to 4. Only 1 Mission had this, namely Humanitarian Aid at the worst point, which is not Chicago.

I checked the finalized versions. The base Background Count and Noise in the CCZ is 2 and 2. In the first three Chicago runs there is a 3 Noise once, a 1 Background Count once, and that's the only exceptions.

In the raw versions of the next three, which aren't out in finished format yet, there is only 1 exceptionally high background count and one I suspect will be toned down given the finalized Background Count rules.

Honestly, I'm surprised that the background count for people goes past 2 in Chicago, because there is only 1 Chicago Mission out of six with that, only one out of eight 2010 CMPs, and none out of eight 2013 CMPs. Granted, I haven't seen the second batch of Chicago Missions yet* but even then I would not assume it's a really frequent occasion.

*: I am going through filler CMP Missions in the hope 4~6 release before I run out of filler Missions, since I want to run them with finalized versions.
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Raven2049

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« Reply #36 on: <11-19-14/0658:49> »
well according to my, and my groups GM, since astral perception is a 1 PP adept power, and you need PPx4 force Qi foci for an adept power, and according to new missions rules that the background count subtracts from active foci force, our ruling was that since its not fully "powered" it cannot activate. since there's no such thing as partially astral perceiving.

or are you suggesting that even tho the foci is effectively a 3 in a background count of 1, or a 2/1 in a background count of 2/3 it can still activate as long as it has 1 force?

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #37 on: <11-19-14/0709:17> »
I find that decision extremely controversial since you effectively completely devaluate a new system. I haven't seen any proper support for it in the rules myself and don't think such a judgement call should ever be made without official confirmation. So until Bull gives an answer, which he cannot because nobody asked him the question*, I personally do not believe any GM has the right to make that call.

As for my own judgement call: "Each focus is specific to a single adept power at a specific level." This can be read in two ways. One: The creation Force has to be sufficient. Two: The current Force has to be sufficient. I don't think the SR5 Core description kept Background Count in mind, and since Qi Foci are not stated as special exception in Street Grimoire there is no reason to treat them other than other Foci. In other words, if it's not shut down it still works. If they intended to reduce the Powers of Qi Foci they should have said so explicitly in SG.

* Edit: Which I now did.
« Last Edit: <11-19-14/0713:21> by Michael Chandra »
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Foxworthy

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« Reply #38 on: <12-31-14/2116:36> »
I have a question along these lines. I don't own Street Grimoire so I'm trying to piece some of the background count rules together from forum post and the FAQ.

It seems that Foci don't work if brought into an area with a background count, where as before street grimoire background count didn't effect foci. So that means that with the assumed background count of 2 that foci of force 2 or below are no longer usable? So they're now just wasted money and karma? Is that how the rules work?

Crimsondude

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« Reply #39 on: <12-31-14/2334:58> »
Yes.

That's how Background Count has always affected foci.

Foxworthy

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« Reply #40 on: <01-01-15/0103:21> »
Yes.

That's how Background Count has always affected foci.

I just went back and checked the previous FAQ (1.0 & 1.1.1), and Hot Patch errata (1.0) and saw no mention of Foci being effected by background count, just the dice pool penalties.

The reason why I bring this up, is because I have a character that uses a couple low level foci for sustaining spells and as a power focus at force 2. If the background count always worked that way and I missed the rule then I pretty much wasted a large amount of karma and nuyen making the character. Which will probably have me start over again with a new character.

If the effect on Foci was added when Street Grimoire was legalized then I may be able to use the minor rules change caveat in the FAQ to get back the karma and nuyen so that I can buy Foci that are actually useable in the game. Though I may not be able to because they aren't technically unusable because places that have a lower than 2 background count may exist, even if Missions assumes that background count of 2 is standard.

I have some time before I play again as my local GM is waiting on London Falling to become missions legal and get debriefing sheets before he starts up again.

Crimsondude

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« Reply #41 on: <01-01-15/0137:30> »
I meant previous editions.

But anyway, that's what SG says background count does to foci. So, yeah, you want to get that money and karma back.

Lucean

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« Reply #42 on: <01-05-15/0128:46> »
Would you also require the GM to hand you money and karma back, when you're required to go to an area where you can only use pistol-sized weapons and not the Ares Alpha, you're so fond of?

Crimsondude

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« Reply #43 on: <01-05-15/0142:39> »
Poor analogy.

The early Season 5 Missions material specifically allows for this in anticipation of Street Grimoire superseding the ad hoc Missions rules regarding background count, and post-SG Missions modules cite Street Grimoire rules.
« Last Edit: <01-05-15/0146:09> by Crimsondude »

Foxworthy

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« Reply #44 on: <01-05-15/1454:44> »
Would you also require the GM to hand you money and karma back, when you're required to go to an area where you can only use pistol-sized weapons and not the Ares Alpha, you're so fond of?

Except it's worse then that. A Force 2 Sustaining Foci which was usable before Street Grimoire is unusable in Chicago now since we have a assumed background count of 2. It's now become an item that completely unusable. And unlike firearms, it does cost karma just to use. Not owning the new book that has changed the rules, I don't even know if I could still use my Force 2 Power Focus in my own magical lodge, but I know it won't work default in Chicago. Between those two items I believe it was 16 karma and 44,000 nuyen. Not really small numbers. I've gained like 32 karma playing 5 missions, and about 60,000 nuyen over five missions or so. Losing those foci would be pretty much like throwing 10 hours of game play down the drain. That's after I had to switch to a mage after the first guy dropped out of missions in my area, so I had to retire a character with 5 missions on him.

So, if I'm not allowed to do that, I understand, but it seems like it should fall under the minor rules change provision. But I really don't see this issue as equivalent to someone not being able to use a rifle in certain area.