[JoeNapalm]

*Drops out of a Deep Rift wrapped in a Displacement Alchera in mid-sentence*

...and I've been thinking of a just-for-fun build of a "Guns Akimbo" style character.

I realize the pros/cons and "is it super effective?!" commentary has been hashed and rehashed and then hashed again.

What I'm asking you crunchy Running grognards is - if you're gonna go ahead and build it anyway, how would all y'all go about it?

I'd throw up a rough pass through Chummer, but I've only got ready access to Linux and iOS, at the moment. *sigh*

My initial thoughts are Elf, for the AGI, matching Ingram Smartgun Xs for the heck of it (HV, extended mags, auto-weight, maybe Hvy barrel, sling...dunna have Arsenal in front of me but I think that might be six slots of actually stacking RC).

I know Smartlinks won't work for dual-fire, unless there's some dark tech I'm unaware of to allow it (sadly, Attention Co-Processor is a "no") but will be handy for alternating fire. Tracers, yes, but only at range.

Not sure if Cyber or Adept would be best, either.

Thoughts? Anyone?

And why the heck is everyone staring at me like I just dropped out of a Deep Rift?


-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[emsquared]

...and I've been thinking of a just-for-fun build of a "Guns Akimbo" style character.
...
My initial thoughts are Elf, for the AGI, matching Ingram Smartgun Xs for the heck of it (HV, extended mags, auto-weight, maybe Hvy barrel, sling...dunna have Arsenal in front of me but I think that might be six slots of actually stacking RC).

That's a lot of RC (HV in ea. hand? yikes!) you're gonna have to deal with - note: Heavy Barrel and Auto-Weight DO NOT stack and you can't fit the Auto-Weight-, so max RC on a Smartgun X is 5 (6 if your GM will let you swap out the Gas Vent 2 for a 3 - which RAW you can't, while still maintaining the free slots for it - but maybe you can convince him with a doubled or tripled cost). Which means you're looking at a hefty -6 to your pool in each hand (two cyber-arms with Gyro-mounts would knock that down to a more viable -3, but 2 cyber arms is A LOT of ESS that will probably preclude you from Adept).

If I were to do it (and I have - my first SR4A PC was a Face/akimbo-Adept), I'd go with Pistols but that's because I'm not big on straight Shooter roles, Pistols for the concealability.

You're absolutely right with the Elf bit, however I'd extend that - if you have the option - to a SURGEd Elf with Metagenetic Improvement (AGI). Definitely Adept (Augmented-Adept specifically) is the way to go if you can use the Way of the Adept book, otherwise it depends on what you want out of the character - immediate BANG-BANG or the long, gradual ascent - which may not even be that long and gradual if you aren't trying to do anything else with the PC. You can stuff Muscle Toner 4 and Genetic Optimization (AGI) in 1 pt. of ESS. Powers would go Improved Reflexes 2 and Improved Ability (Pistols) II to get you up to: AGI 8(12) + Pistols 6 + 2 IA = 20 dice to split between your hands (which you can eventually push to 22 with 1 pt. in AGI and 1 more IA (Pistols)). Using your HV Smartgun approach you're instantly back down to 4 dice per attack on a Full-Burst, which any opposition worth it's salt will probably Evade, however ditching the HV on a Smartgun would get you to fully compensated Long-Bursts in each hand... not bad.

[JoeNapalm]

Thanks, emsquared.

Didn't have the books in front of me...thought Heavy Barrel stacked with all RC mods.

Pistols are easier. My street merc character uses two pistols vs mooks and goons.

But this concept is more over-the-top Gun Fu with extra helpings of lead.


-Jn-

[emsquared]

Didn't have the books in front of me...thought Heavy Barrel stacked with all RC mods.

Actually, you're right it does stack, but it's 3 slots for 1 RC, so it won't fit/ you're better off with Underbarrel Weight w/ it's 2 slots/1 RC and an Extended Mag mod (IMO).

If you REALLY wanted to get crazy, you could do the Adept bit as above, keeping the HV, get 1 cyberlimb with a Gyro-mount, knock the Improved Reflexes down to Level 1, get a Gyro-stabilization Accessory for the other arm, and have 1 fully compensated HV Full-Burst (using the Heavy Barrel in place of Under-weight and 100 Round Extended Mag mod), and one (using Under-weight and 100 Round Extended Mag) HV Full-burst with just a -3 (or a fully compensated Long Burst, and -1 Short Burst combo OR 3 Short Bursts with the last at a -1). If that's not over the top I dunno what is.

By my calculations, you can get everything as seen here (along with 3 BOD, 1 STR, 5(6) REA, 3 CHA, 5 INT, 2 LOG, 3 WIL, 2 EDG, 3 MAG/0.5 spare PP), with 113 BP to spare for more Skills, Money, Attributes, Contacts, etc... interesting build experiment. Ridiculous N/PC.

[JoeNapalm]

Yeah, I just want to see what could be built if you went full Mohawk.

-Jn-

[teekaj2]

Before I start let me say that I think this build is AFAIK legal, but I could be wrong. This is version of the character that can fire a fully compensated HV burst from each hand each round, assuming your GM lets you upgrade the Gas Vents to 3 without using mod slots and uses the RC from strength rule. If he does, here you go. I suggest that you fire one burst at a time for better aim rather than straight Akimbo, but you won't be hurting for firepower either way. This character has 74 BP and 1845 nuyen left, with the ability to assign 14 more points to cash.


== Info ==
Street Name: Shooty McSMG
Name: Unnamed Character
Movement: 10/25, Swim: 6
Karma: 0
Street Cred: 0
Notoriety: 0
Public Awareness: 0
Elf
Composure: 6
Judge Intentions: 7
Lift/Carry: 11 (90 kg/60 kg)
Memory: 5
Nuyen: 0

== Attributes ==
BOD: 4 (5)
AGI: 5 (10)
REA: 5 (7)
STR: 5 (6)
CHA: 3
INT: 4
LOG: 2
WIL: 3
EDG: 1
MAG: 3

== Derived Attributes ==
Essence:                   4.04
Initiative:                9 (11)
IP:                        1 (3)
Astral Initiative:         8
Astral IP:                 3
Matrix Initiative:         7
Matrix IP:                 1
Physical Damage Track:     13
Stun Damage Track:         10

== Active Skills ==
Automatics : 6 [Submachine Guns]    Pool: 19 (21)

== Qualities ==
Adept
Ambidextrous
Distinctive Style (35 pts)
Low-Light Vision
Restricted Gear (Rating 2)
The Warrior's Way

== Powers ==
Improved Ability (Combat) (Automatics) Rating: 2
Improved Reflexes 2

== Lifestyles ==
Apartment  1 months
   Comforts:      Low
   Entertainment: Street
   Necessities:   Low
   Neighborhood:  Low
   Security:      Low
   Qualities:     Crash Pad [-1LP]
                  Green Plan [-1LP]
                  No Forwarding Address [-1LP]

== Cyberware/Bioware ==
Muscle Toner Rating 4
Obvious Lower Arm (Left)
   +Cyberarm Gyromount
Obvious Lower Arm (Right)
   +Cyberarm Gyromount
Reflex Recorder (Skill) (Automatics)
Suprathyroid Gland

== Armor ==
Death Mask                0/1
Form-Fitting Full-Body Suit6/2
Lined Coat                6/4
SecureTech Arm Casings    0/1
SecureTech Forearm Guards 0/1
SecureTech Shin Guards    0/1
SecureTech Vitals Protector1/1

== Weapons ==
Ingram Smartgun X
   +Foregrip
   +Gas-Vent 3 System
   +Sling
   +Extended Clip, 100 Drum
   +Folding Stock
   +Heavy Barrel
   +High Velocity
   +Smartgun System
   +Sound Suppressor
   Pool: 21 (23)   DV: 5P   AP: -   RC: 7
Ingram Smartgun X
   +Foregrip
   +Gas-Vent 3 System
   +Sling
   +Extended Clip, 100 Drum
   +Folding Stock
   +Heavy Barrel
   +High Velocity
   +Smartgun System
   +Sound Suppressor
   Pool: 21 (23)   DV: 5P   AP: -   RC: 7
Unarmed Attack
   Pool: 9   DV: 3S   AP: -   RC: 0

== Commlink ==
Custom Commlink (3, 3, 3, 3)
   +Subvocal Microphone
   +Skinlink
   +Armor Case Rating 10
   +Suite: Pro User [Analyze 4, Browse 4, Command 2, Edit 4]
   +Iris Orb
   +Decrypt Rating 3 [Copy Protection 3, Registration]
   +Encrypt Rating 3 [Copy Protection 3, Registration]
   +Spoof Chip

== Gear ==
Ammo Drum/Box (Ingram Smartgun X) x4
   +Ammo: Regular Ammo (Submachine Guns)
Contact Lenses Rating 3
   +Smartlink
   +Skinlink
   +Image Link
   +Flare Compensation
Glasses Rating 2
   +Vision Enhancement Rating 3
   +Vision Magnification

== Vehicles ==
Suzuki Mirage (Racing Bike)
   +Vehicle Sensor

[emsquared]

Your guy is already at his max for pools though, go this route (with the same assumptions) and you can hit fully compensated after 30 Karma and have your pools max out at 24 (26 if you're just shooting 1 at a time). Never mind he only has 24 BP to spare LOL!

== Attributes ==
BOD: 3
AGI: 8 (12)
REA: 5 (7)
STR: 3 (5)
CHA: 3
INT: 5
LOG: 2
WIL: 3
EDG: 2
MAG: 3

== Derived Attributes ==
Essence:                   4.15
Initiative:                10 (12)
IP:                        1 (3)
Physical Damage Track:     11
Stun Damage Track:         10

== Active Skills ==
Automatics : 6 [Submachine Guns]    Pool: 20 (22)

== Qualities ==
Adept
Ambidextrous
Changeling (SURGE II)
Distinctive Style (35 pts)
Low-Light Vision
Metagentic Improvement (AGI)
Restricted Gear (Rating 1)
The Warrior's Way

== Powers ==
Improved Ability (Combat) (Automatics) Rating: 2
Improved Reflexes 2

== Cyberware/Bioware ==
Muscle Augmentation Rating 2
Muscle Toner Rating 4
Obvious Lower Arm (Left)
   +Cyberarm Gyromount
Obvious Lower Arm (Right)
   +Cyberarm Gyromount

== Weapons ==
Ingram Smartgun X
   +Foregrip
   +Gas-Vent 3 System
   +Sling
   +Extended Clip, 100 Drum
   +Folding Stock
   +Heavy Barrel
   +High Velocity
   +Smartgun System
   +Sound Suppressor
   Pool: 22 (24)   DV: 5P   AP: -   RC: 7
Ingram Smartgun X
   +Foregrip
   +Gas-Vent 3 System
   +Sling
   +Extended Clip, 100 Drum
   +Folding Stock
   +Heavy Barrel
   +High Velocity
   +Smartgun System
   +Sound Suppressor
   Pool: 22 (24)   DV: 5P   AP: -   RC: 7

[JoeNapalm]

That is absurd...crazy...and Beautiful!

I salute you, good sir!

I might replace the foregrip with an under-barrel weight...can't use the foregrips with two guns.

[EDIT]. Actually. Per AR148, gyro mounts don't stack with much at all...probably not worth the ESS.

[EDIT EDIT] INITIATIVE. Duh. 


-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[JoeNapalm]

Also, how did you swing all of those mods?

I keep coming up with 8 slots?


-Jn-

[emsquared]

Yeah, you're right on both accounts. I didn't even really look at the mods, just copy'n'pasted his being more concerned with the pools. INT 5 is for initiative and not being surprised. Not any good being able to throw a hell-storm of lead if you are dead (or injured) before you get to do it. Anyway that's just how I'd stat him, easily changed.

[JoeNapalm]

Again without Arsenal, but off the top of my head:

Ingram Smartgun X comes standard, I believe, with an integral smartlink, GV2, integral Suppressor, and a removable folding stock.

I'd probably pull the folding stock and replace with a sling. It's not going to stack with the other mods, but really, you're gonna need slings going guns akimbo.

Knowing my GM, barring any specific rule forbidding it, he'd probably let me upgrade Gas Vent II to Gas Vent III for one slot and the cost difference. It's barrel porting, and while you can't remove it, or stack it, you can add more ports.

The remaining usable/stacking recoil mods would be Heavy Barrel, Personalized Grips/Electronic Firing, and Under-barrel Weight/Auto-Adjusting Weight. Each grant 1 RC, but Electronic Firing cost 2 slots, Heavy Barrel costs 3 slots, and AAW cost 4.

Under-barrel Weight can by added as a Accessory.  I don't think any of the others can.

HV and a C-mag (100rnds) are each 2 slots.

About the best I can see, again, without AR in front of me, is:

Ingram Smartgun X
   +Personalized Grip
   +Gas-Vent 3 System
   +Sling
   +Extended Magazine, 40rds
   +Heavy Barrel
   +Under-barrel Weight
   +Smartgun System
   +Sound Suppressor
   Pool: 22 (24)   DV: 5P   AP: -   RC: 6


Alternatively, dropping the Extended Magazine down to 1 slot, you could do the following:

Ingram Smartgun X
   +Electronic Firing
   +Gas-Vent 3 System
   +Sling
   +Auto-Adjusting Weight
   +Smartgun System
   +Sound Suppressor
   Pool: 22 (24)   DV: 5P   AP: -   RC: 6

This gives you the same amount of compensation, but makes for slightly more expensive, stylish, quieter, more concealable weapon, at the expense of 25% of your ammo capacity.

[EDIT: Ugh. forgot to count the GVIII slot. Can't add it as a mod cause it's already integrated. Had to reduce Extended Mags to get beyond 5 RC]

To get additional ammo capacity, you could actually start with a plain vanilla SMG, mount GVIII as a Barrel Accessory, the Smartlink as a Top Accessory, and lose the Suppressor, thus freeing up one slot used by GVIII, giving you 40ish rounds, depending on the model of SMG you chose.


-Jn-
Ifriti Sophist

[Medicineman]

Not sure if Cyber or Adept would be best, either.

how about a cybered Adept ?
better yet, how about a cybered Nartaki Adept ?
aahhh, I see

== Cyberware/Bioware ==
Muscle Augmentation Rating 2
Muscle Toner Rating 4
Obvious Lower Arm (Left)
   +Cyberarm Gyromount
Obvious Lower Arm (Right)
   +Cyberarm Gyromount

You already did that.
Well what about a Nartaki ? 

with an Indian Dance
Medicineman

[JoeNapalm]

Wouldn't that be basically unmanageable? I mean, with four SMGs?

Though I guess it would make reloading easier, if you just did two.

I think the AGI of an Elf would be more helpful than further splitting of the pools.

It occurs to me, looking at all of this, might be easier to do ONE HV SMG for similar effect - but certainly not as stylish!

Style over substance is the essence of cyberpunk.

-Jn-

[Medicineman]

Style over substance is the essence of cyberpunk.

Nartaki with Kukri, Shamshir and two Ingram Smart X Akimbo.
With Great Leap Jumping into the Air firing his SMGs

Wouldn't that be basically unmanageable? I mean, with four SMGs?

its manageable a dedicated Adept can get 4 Pools of 4-6 Dice
(more with specialisation and Tacsoft whivh are situational mods and added after splitting the Pool)
two Ingram Smart X and an Assaultrifle is also possible
Thats why I advised a Nartaki ! You get so many interesting and stylish combinations !!

with a stylish Dance
Medicineman