[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Are you trying to say that you're trying to trap me, or are you trying to say that you disagree with me?

Lanier or Lofwyr have (or should have) actual connection ratings in the double digits; no honest doubt about it.  Isn't the real question whether they are willing to use all of that in order to help you?  If all you can do is pick their brains over a beer, then for you that's a Connection 1 contact.  Oh, hey, he'll always go out bowling with you, or the opera if you have tickets, he'll always go to the Sonics game, you can always crash on his (personal, out in Germany or Boston) couch for the night if your girlfriend threw your sorry ass out and you ain't got change for a coffin motel.  That's what good-friends-to-the-end do for each other.  If, however, he isn't going to ask anyone to do anything for you, isn't going to wield any of the clout he actually has, then that's effectively only a 1 for Connections.

[Poindexter]

Are you trying to say that you're trying to trap me, or are you trying to say that you disagree with me?

Lanier or Lofwyr have (or should have) actual connection ratings in the double digits; no honest doubt about it.  Isn't the real question whether they are willing to use all of that in order to help you?  If all you can do is pick their brains over a beer, then for you that's a Connection 1 contact.  Oh, hey, he'll always go out bowling with you, or the opera if you have tickets, he'll always go to the Sonics game, you can always crash on his (personal, out in Germany or Boston) couch for the night if your girlfriend threw your sorry ass out and you ain't got change for a coffin motel.  That's what good-friends-to-the-end do for each other.  If, however, he isn't going to ask anyone to do anything for you, isn't going to wield any of the clout he actually has, then that's effectively only a 1 for Connections.

i feel where you're going for here, but if someone says they're my best bud for life "loyalty 6" but wont lift a finger to help me when i need it, they are lying about how close a friends we are, and im kidding myself.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Really?  You'd quit your job, drive across the country to bury a body, change your name, and give all your money to your absolutely best friend just for the asking?  If I'm understanding you correctly, that's the kind of thing a 'Loyalty 6' contact would do.  But y'know, I know I would cover my ass and probably cut the guy loose to deal with the crap coming his way, 'cause that's going a little far for even 'BFF' friendship.

Lofwyr may not have the sort of pressures that Lanier has, but both of them have people literally watching their every move, and they have a whole hell of a lot more to lose if they get caught helping your sorry ass out.  'Head of Security Linked To Dirty Rotten Criminal Scum!!  Oversight Committee Meeting To Be Held!!  Lanier Sure To Be Fired - And Then Face Firing Squad!!'  You have a guy who you've known since kindergarten, or who you were roommates with in boarding school or college, or whatever your explanation is.  He is willing to step out of a boardroom meeting to give you his Very Fraggin' Valuable time and the advantage of his 'I Got a 22 in Magic Theory' skills and brain - and you're complaining that he doesn't do more for you because he won't have his corporate security come in with guns blazing to dig you out of trouble, have his personal doctor patch you up, and then give you the key to his penthouse?

Contacts go both ways.  If you want him to do that for you, then you better be willing to bail out of the middle of a run to go chuck a firebomb on a whooole orphanage of cute little dwarf and elf kiddes right in front of the KSAF cameras, shooting the little darlings in gory blood-and-brain-spattering headshots as they run screaming out of the flames.

If you want that level of Connection in your play, then you'd better buy them with that level of Connections.  I'm giving you an explanation of how six different people can have the same person at completely different levels of Loyalty and Connections.  If you don't want to play that way, that's okay - but think about what you're proposing first.

"Dude, I can't do that.  It'd be a media circus - I'd lose fifty billion in contracts."

[Absols]

@ThewyrmOroboros

Can I just get this clear?

Lets say two runners each by the same contact -under your interpretation of the rules- for they're sprawl mayor, one gets him at C6/L1  and the other gets him at C1/L6. For whatever reason they're both in holding cells, they both make they're phonecall to the mayor, for the one who bought him at C1/L6 the conversation goes something like this:

Shadowrunner: "Hey buddy, got a problem, I'm in jail, can you pull a few strings and get me out no questions asked? I can pay you, an I'll owe you a big favour."

Mayor. "No can do bud, to risky, sorry."

Shadowrunner: "Wait, what? I can pay you if you like, I know you do this kind of stuff for other runners!"

Mayor: "Still no." *Hangs up*


The Shadowrunner who bought him at C6/L1 calls:

Shadowrunner: "Hello, my fixer put me in contact with you, I'm in jail, I heard you can get me out for a Fee?"

Mayor: "Correct, I'll make a phonecall, I expect 15k Nuyen to be in my account within the hour"

Shadowrunner "Done."


Soo...how on earth does that make sense?

[Poindexter]

i see your point, wyrm.
I just think there's some middleground between "You can crash on the couch, but after that you're on your own", and "I am willing to destroy myself to help you"

[Sincereagape]

Lanier or Lofwyr have (or should have) actual connection ratings in the double digits; no honest doubt about it.  Isn't the real question whether they are willing to use all of that in order to help you?  If all you can do is pick their brains over a beer, then for you that's a Connection 1 contact. 

All I am doing is going by the book definition of contacts.  Once again connection rating determines social influence, knowledge, and clout they have in the 6th world and loyalty rating determines how much, how far, and what they are or what they are not willing to do for a character.

By having a rating one connection rating in each of these contacts, this character severely limits what the contact is able to do for them according to your definition.

As stated by Absols: IE for the Club owner contact for Loki (C1L5)

Loki: Hey, can you get me a meeting with the yakuza  oyabun, hanzo who frequents this establishment and helped you get your club?  I will pay you a large sum of nuyen.  It is life or death and you are the closest thing I have to a friend.   He thinks I killed some of his men but I was not even there, I need to explain it to him.

Alessia: Sorry doll, you're very handsome and I care about you, and I know you need this but I can't do it for you.   I just don't have that pull for you. That's not our relationship.

Next runner: C4L2


Runner: hey toots I need to meet with hanzo and make it snappy.  I am a regular and buy drinks from ya. Hanzo wants my balls because he thinks I killed some of his men and I just wanted a chance to tell him that it was some other Tusker and not me.

Alessia - sure big boy, you came to the right  person. You can use our back room, but it will cost you.

[martinchaen]

All right, everyone, that's quite enough of that. If you want to discuss the ramifications of Connection and Loyalty, this is not the place do to it any more.

I believe everyone's points have been made; to those who disagree with my choices on contacts, I hear what you are saying and thank you for voicing your opinion. To those who've contributed to the discussion; thank you for providing alternative views.

Suffice to say, I'm content with the choices I've made for the characters contacts, with the possible exception of Alessia Thorne.

I am considering changing her to a C2/L4 contact, because I realize I was looking at the meta game and/or stats more than anything else; a Bartender (which is the stock contact I based her on), has little value to me beyond knowledge skills, but this might not entirely fit her background.

[Poindexter]

i can only speak for myself, but i assume the same is true for the rest of us. I never intended to come across as "attacky" or picking at anything.
sorry if things came out wrong, dude.
 I dig the HELL out of the concept of the character.

[Absols]

i can only speak for myself, but i assume the same is true for the rest of us. I never intended to come across as "attacky" or picking at anything.
sorry if things came out wrong, dude.
 I dig the HELL out of the concept of the character.

^ This for me to.

I actually really do like your contact descriptions btw, most people I play with literally just put down there 'job' C/L and nothing else. I'm not experienced enough with the system to give you a mechanical critique of the character, so sorry about that. 

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Contact discussion move to Shadowrun Play / Rules and Such / Contacts: Official and Interpretive Explanations.

Sorry for the intrusion, Martin.

[martinchaen]

Not at all Wyrm et al; I appreciated the input y'all provided.