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Run & Gun rules questions

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firebug

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« Reply #15 on: (06:34:07/04-12-14) »
That doesn't really explain it.  Also, Iaijutsu doesn't require the enemy to be unaware or anything.  Shinobi's gripe is thus:

Swinging your already-drawn sword to attack a foe:  Complex Action

Using Iaijutsu to draw your sword and then do the above:  Simple Action

If it was "You may draw your weapon in the same action as you attack with it as a Complex Action", then it would make sense, because it's just shortening the time to draw a blade and that makes sense.  What doesn't make sense is that the moment after you've made your Iaijutsu swing, your next swing suddenly takes about twice as long, for no reason, in addition to the first strike even including an extra action.  It's not unreasonable to ask "If I can unsheathe and swing my sword as a simple action, why can I not just swing it as a simple action?"

I can say why it's written that way; it's based off the already weird Quick Draw action on page 165, which lets you draw a weapon and attack with it as a simple action, including melee weapons, but they have to be small, so usually it only works with knives.    Iaijutsu is just the technique to do it with a weapon of any size as long as it has a sheathe of some kind.

It's saying "you take a simple action to draw it, and if you succeed on this test, you can still attack that turn".  The rules are just dumb; instead of shortening the action it takes to attack with something called QUICK DRAW they should have made it a shorter action to draw the weapon.  'Cause they didn't weird stuff like this happens.
« Last Edit: (06:41:30/04-12-14) by firebug »
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Jeeze.  It would almost sound stupid until you realize we're talking about an immortal elf clown sword fighting a dragon ghost in a mall.

ProfessorCirno

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« Reply #16 on: (09:19:57/04-12-14) »
Really, the dumb rule at the center off ALL of this is melee attacking being a complex.  Change it to a Simple, literally all problems solved.

JackVII

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« Reply #17 on: (15:32:45/04-12-14) »
Can someone walk me through this?

Quote from: p. 128, R&G:
Martial arts styles may also be selected as specializations for the normal cost of 7 Karma—selecting that specialization provides a +2 bonus when using that technique.

This seems to be the standard way to get a Martial Art Style, spend 7 karma, etc. Let's say I took Knight Errant Tactical and picked up Barbed Hooks, one of the styles techniques.

Quote from: p.135, R&G
The character is quick to strike out at opponents as they move within his space. The technique provides a +1 die bonus to Interception Interrupt Action tests.

Does that mean the character actually has a +3 DP bonus to using the Interception Interrupt Action (+1 from the technique, +2 from the style specialization)? Or am I misunderstanding this and you would have to spend 14 karma (7 to learn the style and 7 to specialize in it) to gain the +3 DP?
« Last Edit: (15:45:30/04-12-14) by JackVII »
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JackVII

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« Reply #18 on: (15:43:19/04-12-14) »
ETA: Answered in the post by Gibraltar below this one. Leaving it up in case anyone else is confused.

Another question:

In the Red Box on p. 136 dealing with Cybernetics and Martial Arts, it states that skillwires "cannot allow the use of martial arts techniques without the character first learning the style and techniques separately."

OK, I'm down with that, skillsoft normally aren't available for specializations in SR5. But here's the rub, if martial arts styles are purchased as specializations to a Combat Skill of some type, how is it handled if all your ranks for that combat skill are being provided through skillwires? Can you buy the specialization independent of having ranks in the base skill anyway and only have use of it if the appropriate skillsoft is slotted? Or, do you have to purchase 1 rank of the base skill in order to pick up the martial arts style specialization first before being able to use martial arts styles in conjunction with skillwires (even though the rules basically state that skillwires overwrite your own skills)?

This also may be me misunderstanding the rules. Is learning a martial arts style distinct from having a specialization in it? In other words, would one need to spend 14 karma to both learn and specialize in a martial arts style?

Answer: Learning a Martial Arts Style is different than gaining a Martial Arts Style Specialty.
« Last Edit: (16:23:07/04-12-14) by JackVII »
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Giabralter

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« Reply #19 on: (16:10:27/04-12-14) »
Can someone walk me through this?

Quote from: p. 128, R&G:
Martial arts styles may also be selected as specializations for the normal cost of 7 Karma—selecting that specialization provides a +2 bonus when using that technique.

This seems to be the standard way to get a Martial Art Style, spend 7 karma, etc. Let's say I took Knight Errant Tactical and picked up Barbed Hooks, one of the styles techniques.

Quote from: p.135, R&G
The character is quick to strike out at opponents as they move within his space. The technique provides a +1 die bonus to Interception Interrupt Action tests.

Does that mean the character actually has a +3 DP bonus to using the Interception Interrupt Action (+1 from the technique, +2 from the style specialization)? Or am I misunderstanding this and you would have to spend 14 karma (7 to learn the style and 7 to specialize in it) to gain the +3 DP?

It's the latter. So you'd have the specialization with the skill AND the Martial Art with the Technique. And if you take the same technique from two different martial arts, you can increase the technique bonus to +2 (So your total bonus is +4).

JackVII

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« Reply #20 on: (16:21:40/04-12-14) »
It's the latter. So you'd have the specialization with the skill AND the Martial Art with the Technique. And if you take the same technique from two different martial arts, you can increase the technique bonus to +2 (So your total bonus is +4).
Thanks for the answer.
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martinchaen

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« Reply #21 on: (17:16:03/04-12-14) »
And just in case you hadn't seen it, the list of which Style applies to which skill is on page 135.

So for my Adept Kensei, I'm taking Blades 6 for 6 Skill Points, the Kenjutsu Martial Art Style with the Iaijutsu Technique for 7 Karma, and the Finishing Move Technique for an additional 5 Karma.

At this point in character generation, I could choose to take either the Swords or Kenjutsu specializations by spending 1 Skill Point or 7 Karma, respectively, but as far as I can tell the end results are mostly the same; both would give +2 dice on the Iaijutsu Quick-Draw test with a Katana, and both would add the +2 dice pool modifier to attacks made using Finishing Move. The Specialization, thus, is an inferior choice from a cost effectiveness point of view, as the Swords specialization only costs 1 Skill Point. The Kenjutsu specialization would be a good follow-up specializaiton for a swordmaster as it would allow for an additional +2 to Kenjutsu techniques (and who doesn't want more dice when attacking multiple foes, or for quick-drawn and finishing move, for instance).

Does the above mesh with your perception of the Martial Art rules?

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #22 on: (18:25:28/04-12-14) »
That doesn't really explain it.  Also, Iaijutsu doesn't require the enemy to be unaware or anything.  Shinobi's gripe is thus:

Swinging your already-drawn sword to attack a foe:  Complex Action

Using Iaijutsu to draw your sword and then do the above:  Simple Action

If it was "You may draw your weapon in the same action as you attack with it as a Complex Action", then it would make sense, because it's just shortening the time to draw a blade and that makes sense.  What doesn't make sense is that the moment after you've made your Iaijutsu swing, your next swing suddenly takes about twice as long, for no reason, in addition to the first strike even including an extra action.  It's not unreasonable to ask "If I can unsheathe and swing my sword as a simple action, why can I not just swing it as a simple action?"

I can say why it's written that way; it's based off the already weird Quick Draw action on page 165, which lets you draw a weapon and attack with it as a simple action, including melee weapons, but they have to be small, so usually it only works with knives.    Iaijutsu is just the technique to do it with a weapon of any size as long as it has a sheathe of some kind.

It's saying "you take a simple action to draw it, and if you succeed on this test, you can still attack that turn".  The rules are just dumb; instead of shortening the action it takes to attack with something called QUICK DRAW they should have made it a shorter action to draw the weapon.  'Cause they didn't weird stuff like this happens.

Exactly. Why they went with these lame quick draw rules I'll never get. I'd of made a 2 thresholds modified by the concealability of the item. Meet threshold 1 it's a free action to draw, meet threshold 2 it doesn't take a action at all to draw so you can them combine it with things like the multiple attack free action. You wouldn't need a martial art maneuver to pull off quick drawing anything though the maneuver might exist to reduce the threshold.

I wouldn't mind melee as a simple action on top of that.

FangHamhands

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« Reply #23 on: (20:53:27/04-12-14) »
Okay, let me see if I have the Martial Art thing correct.

My adept has Unarmed Combat at 7. They cannot use any of the Actions listed as 'requires Martial Arts training.'
Now for 7 Karma I can get Unarmed Combat (52 Blocks) 7 and I can choose one of the Techniques listed under 52 Blocks, lets say Kick Attack.
Now when they attack someone in melee they roll 7 dice to attack but 7+2 = 9 dice if they chose to use a Kick Attack.
Also they can now use any of the Actions that are listed as 'requires Martial Arts training'.

Correct so far?

firebug

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« Reply #24 on: (21:00:51/04-12-14) »
I don't know about the specializations, but, you're at least mistaken about the last part.  "Requires Martial Arts training" essentially means that action is a martial arts technique (and should probably only be mentioned later on in the book).  You need to learn each one individually.
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Jeeze.  It would almost sound stupid until you realize we're talking about an immortal elf clown sword fighting a dragon ghost in a mall.

FangHamhands

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« Reply #25 on: (21:31:36/04-12-14) »
<sigh>
You are right about the second part.
I even knew that when I went back and reread that part the other day. Apparently in the interim my brain decided that it wasn't going to remember it.

Cronstintein

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« Reply #26 on: (22:45:29/04-12-14) »
I believe you are mistaken about specializing in the technique to double up on the +2 bonuses.  My understanding is your martial arts style is acting as a specialization already.  So any time you're using a technique from a style, you would get the bonus but it would not stack with other specializations.

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« Reply #27 on: (22:49:07/04-12-14) »
I believe you are mistaken about specializing in the technique to double up on the +2 bonuses.  My understanding is your martial arts style is acting as a specialization already.  So any time you're using a technique from a style, you would get the bonus but it would not stack with other specializations.

That doesn't seem at all correct.  You can buy a specialization for 7 Karma, and, alternatively, you can buy access to a style and one maneuver for 7 Karma.
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JackVII

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« Reply #28 on: (00:42:48/04-13-14) »
That doesn't seem at all correct.  You can buy a specialization for 7 Karma, and, alternatively, you can buy access to a style and one maneuver for 7 Karma.
Some of the writing unnecessarily confuses this issue. In the full page example on p. 142 in the Called Shot (Blast Out Of Hands) section, it states:

"He does not get the + 2 specialization bonus because he has not learned a specific style"

"Learned" not "specialized". My guess is it is supposed to be specialized, but who knows... I put it in the R&G errata thread.
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JackVII

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« Reply #29 on: (10:04:57/04-13-14) »
Q: How does reach interact with the Counterstrike/Riposte interrupt action? The reach differential is normally applied as a modifier to a defender's pool. Is it applied to the defender's attack roll in this case?
« Last Edit: (10:07:10/04-13-14) by JackVII »
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