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frankhlane

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« Reply #120 on: <04-30-14/2148:58> »
Frankhlane, elsewhere on this site is a topic with an email in it you can use to apply. If you really feel you can improve the product, send them an email about working for them.

I may, but that totally discounts what I'm saying.  I'm not saying one more person being paid to do some task is going to help.  I'm saying that it's the year 2014, seemingly every game product gets put through public betas these days.  Shadowrun needs to be one of them, so that all of the issues that all of us (I'm not even close to claiming it's just me or that I am somehow different and better than the other people here are) keep pointing out can be found and fixed before release.

That is the core of what I (and others here) are begging catalyst to consider.
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SlowDeck

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« Reply #121 on: <04-30-14/2156:40> »
I'm one of the people who keeps pointing them out. I also used that email address. It probably won't get me accepted (though, I would do the work for free).

My point wasn't to discount what you were saying. It was to say that this is another avenue you can try. But, my thought process is to try all avenues on something I care about.
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RHat

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« Reply #122 on: <04-30-14/2208:51> »
I know you think nobody will buy it if it's released in total before the full version is released.  You are wrong, we give you our money because we love shadowrun.

It must be nice to be able to afford to pay for something simply out of love for the product; you should probably check your privilege before rushing to assume the same is true of everyone.

A more practical form of this suggestion might be a private beta for people preordering the product.
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frankhlane

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« Reply #123 on: <04-30-14/2223:38> »
I'm one of the people who keeps pointing them out. I also used that email address. It probably won't get me accepted (though, I would do the work for free).

My point wasn't to discount what you were saying. It was to say that this is another avenue you can try. But, my thought process is to try all avenues on something I care about.

Good call and well reasoned.


It must be nice to be able to afford to pay for something simply out of love for the product; you should probably check your privilege before rushing to assume the same is true of everyone.  A more practical form of this suggestion might be a private beta for people preordering the product.

10/10 bait, friend.  Never mind that lowering the size of the crowd you source will lower the effectiveness of the solution and you didn't address the fact that in your example all those people are stealing the product anyway because it's available on the entire internet everywhere of course, because you were just posting to bait some mad out of people who are earnestly trying to help make the product better.  Ten out of a glorious ten.
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RHat

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« Reply #124 on: <04-30-14/2307:14> »

It must be nice to be able to afford to pay for something simply out of love for the product; you should probably check your privilege before rushing to assume the same is true of everyone.  A more practical form of this suggestion might be a private beta for people preordering the product.

10/10 bait, friend.  Never mind that lowering the size of the crowd you source will lower the effectiveness of the solution and you didn't address the fact that in your example all those people are stealing the product anyway because it's available on the entire internet everywhere of course, because you were just posting to bait some mad out of people who are earnestly trying to help make the product better.  Ten out of a glorious ten.

That was not "bait" of any sort - that was the most polite way I could think of to phrase something that needed to be said.

Piracy doesn't go away, sure.  But there are a lot of people who want to legitimately acquire the product, but cannot afford to pay for that which they can legitimately get for free.  That's just a fact.

And this is all, of course, setting aside the fact that the text we got contains errors which were, apparently, caught.
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frankhlane

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« Reply #125 on: <04-30-14/2310:00> »
That was not "bait" of any sort

Utter hogwash.
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RHat

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« Reply #126 on: <04-30-14/2321:11> »
That was not "bait" of any sort

Utter hogwash.

I am attempting, as I always do, to argue in good faith here.  You can feel free to respond in kind, and you can feel free to not respond at all.  I would suggest that you limit yourself to one of those two options, rather than pulling this conversation into a direction which violates the ToS.
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Critias

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« Reply #127 on: <04-30-14/2327:54> »
The problem isn't a shortage of proofreaders, FWIW.

This might seem a little bit harsh, but if it isn't a shortage of manpower it's a shortage of quality work.
Your rant is completely unnecessary and, inasmuch as it's aimed at me, misguided.  You aren't saying anything I haven't read, and -- for the most part -- said before myself.  I'm just trying to make it clear, the problem isn't a shortage of proofreaders

frankhlane

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« Reply #128 on: <05-01-14/0017:54> »
The problem isn't a shortage of proofreaders, FWIW.

This might seem a little bit harsh, but if it isn't a shortage of manpower it's a shortage of quality work.
Your rant is completely unnecessary and, inasmuch as it's aimed at me, misguided.  You aren't saying anything I haven't read, and -- for the most part -- said before myself.  I'm just trying to make it clear, the problem isn't a shortage of proofreaders.

What what the point of posting this?  If the problem isn't a shortage of proofreaders, then my "rant" addresses what the problem may be and offers a solution.  If the problem is a shortage of proofreaders, I've offered a solution.  Either way, it seems like you're offended because you agree with me but don't like the way I said it, which is indicative of that battered-fan-syndrome reaction people have when they know they are getting screwed by a company that they want to love and someone points it out.

I'm not the enemy here.  If you've said all of these points before, then band together with me and keep saying them and maybe we'll see some change.  If speaking clearly and strongly about things isn't your style, then lend your support in the manner that you agree most with and feel free to criticize the way I'm speaking without throwing a message that you seem into agree with out with the bathwater because you don't like the way it was phrased.

Catalyst are both adults and business people.  If you are worried that they may backlash on pleas for quality that are phrased strongly, then you are worried that they are fucking children who would crash the car rather than take driving instructions while we're fucking lost in the woods.  I think better of them than that, at least at this point.  Hopefully most of us do.
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Critias

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« Reply #129 on: <05-01-14/0029:55> »
I think we've got a wire or two crossed.  I'm not a battered fan of Shadowrun, I'm a writer for them.  When I'm telling you that a lack of proofreaders isn't the problem, please believe me when I say that.  I've seen the number of proofreaders we have.  I've been a proofreader on some products in the past.  I've seen and produced proofing notes, editing notes, and playtesting notes aplenty, for SR5 and other products.  Proofreading is happening, and quite a lot of it.  I can't go into details, partially because basic professionalism doesn't let me, and partially because backstage discussions are under NDA, but the suggestions you're making?  They're not new suggestions.  The concerns you have?  They're not new concerns.  It isn't that my "style" isn't to speak strongly and clearly -- speaking strongly and clearly is, in fact, how I make my living in not one, but two, jobs right now -- it's that there are limits to how strong and clear I can be (for legal reasons), and there are limits as to how strong and clear I want to be (because it's all things I've said before, over and over again).

That said?  I'm not trying to silence you.  I'm not trying to throw my imaginary weight around, I'm not trying to bully you, I'm not trying to browbeat you.  I'm trying to save you some energy and enthusiasm.  I'm trying to explain to you that it's arguments the Powers That Be have heard before and that they have then, for various reasons that it's not my place to go into, they have acted on, or not acted on, these arguments in their own way. 

Everyone is well aware that editing and quality control are ongoing issues (or you wouldn't see us freelancers scouring errata threads and compiling errata documents, on our own time and of our own volition, or posting our own personal errata documents on Google drives, or clarifying with our own errata forum posts when we can).  I understand and appreciate your passion and concern, but please be aware that you're not saying anything we haven't all heard, and (again) often said, ourselves.

While I find your posting style abrasive, that's not why I'm responding to you.  I'm just saying, the problem -- as clearly and politely as I can put it to you -- is not a lack of proofreaders.  So suggesting more proofreaders, much less suggesting full public beta tests, is not going to solve the problem, and is also not a suggestion that hasn't been made in the past. 
« Last Edit: <05-01-14/0051:13> by Critias »

martinchaen

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« Reply #130 on: <05-01-14/0710:19> »
First of all, thanks for elaborating Critias; your continued participation on these forums is greatly appreciated.

Second of all, who here, by show of virtual hands, have had an insurmountable obstacle during one of their games with the SR5 rules, that a simple discussion between reasonable adults didn't resolve?

...

I would go so far as to say that if you raised your hand, the problem is not the rules, but you or your players.

Yes, "more better" consistency would be nice. Yes, a glossary of terminology would be awesome. Sure, I'd take more balanced gear and more variety and just plain "more" Shadowrun any day of the week. Does that stop me from enjoying the game without resorting to the kind of rants some of the discussions on this forum devolves into, mostly because of Devil's Advocate and/or Rules Lawyering at it's worst? No, absolutely not.

The SR5 rulebook is 489 pages long. My table's Houserules and Interpretations document consists of 9 items that are rules interpretations (as we see it), and 5 House/Table Rules.

My point being; the level of hyperbole in this thread, and in many of the rules discussions on this forum, is of epic proportions. Does the rules have some issues? Yes, undoubtedly. Are they game breaking? Not even close.

/rant


@Critias
Since proofreaders aren't needed, and since a lot of us do have a burning passions (no, not that kind of burning ;) ) for Shadowrun, is there anything else we can do to help beyond posting in the errata and Q&A threads? I've been a beta/Q&A tester of one or two video games in the past, and in my current line of work we do some Q&A work for products for the oilfield, and we use Issue Trackers; I think it would be really cool if we had a way to post errata requests in an issue tracker instead of on a forum where people can (and often do) derail the thread, ending up with 70+ page threads.

It would also allow you, the freelancers, or the devs directly to more efficiently respond to individual questions ("an answer a day keeps the forum trolls away!"), and it would certainly from my point of view give Catalyst Game Labs a much more "public" profile where interacting with fans are concerned.

Just a thought.

Ursus Maior

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« Reply #131 on: <05-01-14/0807:02> »
Thought it was somewhere around that time zone. I was stationed in Kitzingen, Germany and that was about the length of my flights back home (emergency landings for not having enough fuel or engines catching on fire not withstanding!).

Cool, Kitzingen. I was in Schwarzenborn (close to Kassel) and later lived in Würzburg for a while. Most of you folks are all gone, what a pity.
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frankhlane

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« Reply #132 on: <05-01-14/1841:40> »
Welp the unpopular opinion is getting censored, all is lost.

Good luck with maintaining the sanctity of your fucking echo chamber.
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tasti man LH

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« Reply #133 on: <05-01-14/1853:30> »
...ok, do Shadowrun fans not understand the concept of "Voting with your wallet"?

People, if you disagree with the direction that a company is taking their product line, and you feel like you're talking to a brick wall while trying to deliver your criticisms, then don't buy their stuff!

This is not a brand new concept, people! I mean  we already have clear proof of D&D fans leaving in droves from 4th edition to Pathfinder...and oh hey look, D&DNext is trying to go back to mechanics reminiscent of AD&D to appeal to older fans! Gee, I wonder what happened to create that turnaround?
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Tenlaar

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« Reply #134 on: <05-01-14/1854:05> »
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