[Doc Chaos]

Street Magic p. 94

But it pretty much sucks.

[Kot]

Sucks? I don't think so. A spirit attacks, there's no magician around. What do you do? Send in the Face.

[Mäx]

Sucks? I don't think so. A spirit attacks, there's no magician around. What do you do? Send in the Face.

If my guns can't harm the spirit, i'm definedly not gonna trust my ass on the face hitting the spirit in melee(why is the spirit even in the faces melee range) with his willpower as dicepool for the attack.

[Kot]

Well, what about Edge? Willpower+Edge is a pretty good pool. In a ditch, the whole party can go for it, and drive away, or even (with a bit of luck on the rolls) disrupt the spirit. Even a powerfull (high-Force) spirit will think twice, when he gets hurt by mere humans. And it's an Attack of Will, so if the PC's are determined, they can win.
Especially, when their characters know it can work.

[Chaemera]

Sucks? I don't think so. A spirit attacks, there's no magician around. What do you do? Send in the Face.

If my guns can't harm the spirit, i'm definedly not gonna trust my ass on the face hitting the spirit in melee(why is the spirit even in the faces melee range) with his willpower as dicepool for the attack.

Using the Face from SR4A, pg. 103, fighting against a Force 4 Spirit of Man (which happens to know dodge)

Spirit of Man Relevant Stats:
Reaction: 6
Body: 5
Magic: 4
Dodge: 4

Relevant Face Stats:
Gun: 4P, 0 AP
Agility: 3
Pistols: 2
Charisma: 5
Willpower: 5
Edge: 4

Attack with gun:
DP 5 vs 6 Rea, average result of 1 Hit vs 2 Hits.
IF he gets lucky and rolls 2 hits, still nothing

Attack with gun + Edge
DP 9 vs 6 Rea, average result of 3 Hits vs 2 Hits
5P vs Hardened 8 Armor.
Even if 6's explode, not likely to bring him to the net 3 hits he needs to (possibly) damage the spirit.

Attack of Will:
DP 5 vs 10 (REA + Dodge). . . he ain't gonna win this.

Attack of Will with Edge:
DP 9 vs DP 10, net hits 3 vs 3, still no hit
If he gets lucky and 6's explode to give him 1 more hit:
No hardened armor, Spirit now has to soak:
6P vs DP 5, average 1 or 2 hits, he's taking 4 or 5 physical damage.

So, Attack of Will isn't a great solution, but for a non-combat character, if he somehow ends up trapped with a spirit and can't run / doesn't have a taser, his best choice is to dump edge into Attacks of Will. He's got 4 Edge, and this is assuming there's no combat modifiers (everything but Reach applies) in his favor. Granted, those mods could be in the Spirit's favor, as well. . .

This guy would be shooting the spirit all damn day with no results, but with an edge-enhanced attack of will, he can at least get the bastard's attention & make him think twice. Possibly stalling long enough for backup to arrive.

[Mäx]

yes it migh do some good for that sample face on a one on one fight with a spirits of such a low force, but i would still rather the teams sammy shooting the spirit.
Sammy:
shooting pool 15(a bit on the low side, but that proves the point better)
Assault rifle loaded with EX-EX 7P AP-2
Same spirit as above example

Attack with the gun:
DP 15vs DP6 avarage result 3 net hits for the sammy
10P vs 6 points of hardened armor
oh yeah the spirits taking damage, make it a long or full burst and the spirit is a goner.

[Chaemera]

yes it migh do some good for that sample face on a one on one fight with a spirits of such a low force, but i would still rather the teams sammy shooting the spirit.
Sammy:
shooting pool 15(a bit on the low side, but that proves the point better)
Assault rifle loaded with EX-EX 7P AP-2
Same spirit as above example

Attack with the gun:
DP 15vs DP6 avarage result 3 net hits for the sammy
10P vs 6 points of hardened armor
oh yeah the spirits taking damage, make it a long or full burst and the spirit is a goner.

Never once argued with that. I'm just saying it's not always the worst possible solution, as several people had implied.

[The_Gun_Nut]

In many cases, attacks of will are the only viable option, even if the results aren't optimal.

[Mäx]

I just really can't see a situation in witch it would be of any use, part of that might ofcourse be the fact that most of my face builds carry defiance ex-shockers with them and have diepool to use them a lot higher then their willpower.

[Kot]

I'd rule non-magical stun damage causing weapons as 'normal' anyway. No tazing the BigBadAngrySpirit.

[Doc Chaos]

Uhm, they ARE normal weapons. But they reduce armor by half, so if you can HIT the spirit, you will most likely HURT the spirit. And with the side effects of tasers it gets even better.

[Mäx]

I'd rule non-magical stun damage causing weapons as 'normal' anyway. No tazing the BigBadAngrySpirit.

Of course their normal, but AP -half helps a lot against the hardened armor provided by the ItNW

[Kot]

Should it even apply? I'd say not, since that's not really armor, it's just a shortcut - using the existing game mechanics for spirit powers, so you won't have to make more specific rules.

[Medicineman]

Should it even apply? I'd say not, since that's not really armor, it's just a shortcut - using the existing game mechanics for spirit powers, so you won't have to make more specific rules.

Yes shurely !
If you don't you've got to make up more Houserules (which You wanted to avoid )

Hough !
Medicineman

[Kot]

When a spirit or critter with Immunity (Normal Weapons) is attacked, do you only compare double its Essence to the base Power of the weapon (regardless of modifiers, as with the Hardened Armor power), or do you also count modifiers to the Power from burst fire, ammo type, extra successes, etc?
Treat the Immunity power as you would the Hardened Armor power--only use the base Power of the weapon, unmodified by burst fire, ammo type, etc.

I'd go with that one, and treat shock weapons as any other against spirits. So unless you use one bad-ass troll-sized stun baton, it won't work as planned.

And it's not really a house-rule. It's just labeling shock weapons as 'normal'.