[archamedius]

Hey all,

Looking over the cyberware and bioware rules, stats, etc. I came across some interesting oddities and questions:

1) Upgrading?  I don't see any rules for upgrading cyberware, or replacing it?  As I recall, used to be a long time ago once essence was spent on cyberware it was spent, and if you later took it out, even to get new gear, you did not get any essence back, and had to spend again.  That made upgrading from say wired 2 to wired 3 a no go and you had to be really choosy about your gear, especially for a campaign that was intended to be long.  Eventually I think (and maybe this was house ruled) you could upgrade or replace cyberware having new pieces take the essence lost from an old piece, so you only paid the difference in essence lost.  If you replaced it with something that cost less essence you did not recoup the lost essence however.  Now in 5th I see nothing that talks about upgrading or changing out pieces of cyberware.  So what if someone wants to move from say an RCC 2 to an RCC 3 (since you cannot start with an RCC 3 at start), or perhaps improved from alpha to betaware?

2) Looking at wired reflexes versus synaptic reflexes (the cyberware and bioware reaction+initiative enhancements) why would anyone ever take the cyberware version?  The bioware version has a drastically reduced essence cost, for a small if not insignificant cost increase.  Coupled with the ability to take alpha/beta/deltaware versions of bioware now, it just seems very out of whack.  The only thing I can see is the ability to use wireless versions of wired reflexes with reaction enhancers, but that also seems quite an investment, and for the savings in essence, I still cannot see the upside.  Is there something I am missing?

[WellsIDidIt]

As long as I have been playing (SR3 mostly till now), when you take ware out, you don't gain the essence back, but you have a hole left for augmentation. So if you implant Wired Reflexes 1 and then take it out, your essence is still a 4 (WR 1 has an essence cost of 2), but you fill in those two points of essence from it before taking any more essence loss (so putting in Dermal Plating 4 wouldn't cost anything since it has an essence cost of 2).

As for upgrading, there are some arguments as to how that works or is supposed to work. In earlier editions, there was evidence that the intent was to let you pay the difference to upgrade between rating 1 to 2 of a piece of ware. Now, I don't know if you have to pull the whole thing out or not, we'll likely have to wait for the cyberware book to know for certain.

As for bioware, it's hardly a small difference. Synaptic Booster 1 costs 95k while WR 1 only cost 39k. Level 2 is a difference of 41k and Level 3 is a difference of 58k. That's hardly a small difference.

[archamedius]

As for bioware, it's hardly a small difference. Synaptic Booster 1 costs 95k while WR 1 only cost 39k. Level 2 is a difference of 41k and Level 3 is a difference of 58k. That's hardly a small difference.

Except that at level for the cost of 56k you save yourself 1.5 Essence.  at level 2, for the cost of 41k you save yourself 2 full essence!  At level 3 you save yourself a whopping 3.5 essence.  That is a tremendous amount of essence savings for the cost associated.  This is why I said it was small, in comparison to the essence savings.  Sure at character creation its a huge chunk of change and you cannot get the bioware version at level 3 (nor can you get wired 3 for that matter) but either way it just seems a no brainer.  I suppose if you were crafting a character for a one off adventure and were looking for the biggest bang for your buck and had the essence to spare thanks to the finite amount of nuyen to spend then it would make sense.   Maybe.

[Dakka]

Having a reaction of 12 is a pretty big advantage.  R3 Reaction Enhancers plus R3 Wired Reflexes plus a natural Reaction of 6.  Only Adepts can come close to that kind of dodge pool.  The difference in cash between Synaptic Booster and Wired Reflexes even covers the cost of the Reaction Enhancers.

Your average Street Samurai cares very little about his Essence score.  As long as it's above the threshold of cyber psychosis. It is fairly common to start with Wired Reflexes due to the cost then upgrade to Synaptic Boosters and add some Muscle Toner and Augmentation when the nuyen starts to flow, take the 2 essence hole left by the Wired Reflexes and fill it with augmented ability.

[WellsIDidIt]

It's only small if you can afford it. If you don't have any other need for essence, it's not worth the extra to go with the synaptic. Not every mundane wants a dozen cyber systems. In fact, most Sams I build need less than a point of essence worth of ware other than wires.

[Dakka]

Which is good since Wired Reflexes 3 is 5 points of Essence.

[WellsIDidIt]

Yes it is, but even if you need 2 points of essence for other ware, Alpha WR 3 is only 260.4k. While it's very close to the 275k of Synaptic Boosters, if you're never going to need the extra essence, why pay for it?

Of course there is always the other factor that WR plays, and that's used ware. Synaptic Boosters are cultured. You can't get them used. You can, in a pinch, pick up WR 1 or 2 used. So, if you're strapped for cash at CC, you can pick up WR 1 for just over 29k or WR 2 for about 112k. That's a pretty big factor for characters taking D and C resources.

On another point, I just realized that synaptic boosters also have this tidbit: "The synaptic booster cannot be combined with
any other form of Reaction or Initiative enhancement."

Meanwhile WR have this: Wired reflexes are incompatible with augmentations that affect Reaction or Initiative."

This means that WR users can still gain benefits from other sources, such as drugs. A WR user can get a higher initiative in the end than a Synaptic Booster user. WR 2 and Jazz will put you at +4D6 Initiative, +3 Reaction, and +1 limit. Which is better than SB 3's +3 Reaction and +3D6 Initiative. Given, the drug would be a repeated cost (of 75 nuyen), but initially it's almost half the cost of SB 3.

[Niladen]

Yes it is, but even if you need 2 points of essence for other ware, Alpha WR 3 is only 260.4k. While it's very close to the 275k of Synaptic Boosters, if you're never going to need the extra essence, why pay for it?

Of course there is always the other factor that WR plays, and that's used ware. Synaptic Boosters are cultured. You can't get them used. You can, in a pinch, pick up WR 1 or 2 used. So, if you're strapped for cash at CC, you can pick up WR 1 for just over 29k or WR 2 for about 112k. That's a pretty big factor for characters taking D and C resources.

On another point, I just realized that synaptic boosters also have this tidbit: "The synaptic booster cannot be combined with
any other form of Reaction or Initiative enhancement."

Meanwhile WR have this: Wired reflexes are incompatible with augmentations that affect Reaction or Initiative."

This means that WR users can still gain benefits from other sources, such as drugs. A WR user can get a higher initiative in the end than a Synaptic Booster user. WR 2 and Jazz will put you at +4D6 Initiative, +3 Reaction, and +1 limit. Which is better than SB 3's +3 Reaction and +3D6 Initiative. Given, the drug would be a repeated cost (of 75 nuyen), but initially it's almost half the cost of SB 3.

Something about that seems flawed. I can't think of a reason why you would suddenly be unable to benefit from speed enhancing drugs just because you have bio instead of cyber. Makes me think that's just a misprint. I know at my table I would allow people with synaptic boosters to use drugs.

Another advantage of synaptic boosters is that being bioware, they are much more difficult to detect, cannot be hacked, and are always active.

[Reaver]

Yes it is, but even if you need 2 points of essence for other ware, Alpha WR 3 is only 260.4k. While it's very close to the 275k of Synaptic Boosters, if you're never going to need the extra essence, why pay for it?

Of course there is always the other factor that WR plays, and that's used ware. Synaptic Boosters are cultured. You can't get them used. You can, in a pinch, pick up WR 1 or 2 used. So, if you're strapped for cash at CC, you can pick up WR 1 for just over 29k or WR 2 for about 112k. That's a pretty big factor for characters taking D and C resources.

On another point, I just realized that synaptic boosters also have this tidbit: "The synaptic booster cannot be combined with
any other form of Reaction or Initiative enhancement."

Meanwhile WR have this: Wired reflexes are incompatible with augmentations that affect Reaction or Initiative."

This means that WR users can still gain benefits from other sources, such as drugs. A WR user can get a higher initiative in the end than a Synaptic Booster user. WR 2 and Jazz will put you at +4D6 Initiative, +3 Reaction, and +1 limit. Which is better than SB 3's +3 Reaction and +3D6 Initiative. Given, the drug would be a repeated cost (of 75 nuyen), but initially it's almost half the cost of SB 3.

Something about that seems flawed. I can't think of a reason why you would suddenly be unable to benefit from speed enhancing drugs just because you have bio instead of cyber. Makes me think that's just a misprint. I know at my table I would allow people with synaptic boosters to use drugs.

Another advantage of synaptic boosters is that being bioware, they are much more difficult to detect, cannot be hacked, and are always active.

great for when you just HAVE to be the spastic attention hog.


always on is not really a good thing.....

Very hard to hide the fact that you are "juiced" up... which means any security you bring down on your head (on or off the job), will know you are wired and take appropriate steps.

[Niladen]

Yes it is, but even if you need 2 points of essence for other ware, Alpha WR 3 is only 260.4k. While it's very close to the 275k of Synaptic Boosters, if you're never going to need the extra essence, why pay for it?

Of course there is always the other factor that WR plays, and that's used ware. Synaptic Boosters are cultured. You can't get them used. You can, in a pinch, pick up WR 1 or 2 used. So, if you're strapped for cash at CC, you can pick up WR 1 for just over 29k or WR 2 for about 112k. That's a pretty big factor for characters taking D and C resources.

On another point, I just realized that synaptic boosters also have this tidbit: "The synaptic booster cannot be combined with
any other form of Reaction or Initiative enhancement."

Meanwhile WR have this: Wired reflexes are incompatible with augmentations that affect Reaction or Initiative."

This means that WR users can still gain benefits from other sources, such as drugs. A WR user can get a higher initiative in the end than a Synaptic Booster user. WR 2 and Jazz will put you at +4D6 Initiative, +3 Reaction, and +1 limit. Which is better than SB 3's +3 Reaction and +3D6 Initiative. Given, the drug would be a repeated cost (of 75 nuyen), but initially it's almost half the cost of SB 3.

Something about that seems flawed. I can't think of a reason why you would suddenly be unable to benefit from speed enhancing drugs just because you have bio instead of cyber. Makes me think that's just a misprint. I know at my table I would allow people with synaptic boosters to use drugs.

Another advantage of synaptic boosters is that being bioware, they are much more difficult to detect, cannot be hacked, and are always active.

great for when you just HAVE to be the spastic attention hog.


always on is not really a good thing.....

Very hard to hide the fact that you are "juiced" up... which means any security you bring down on your head (on or off the job), will know you are wired and take appropriate steps.

Synaptic boosters just increase the speed at which signals travel along your nervous system allowing you to react with lightning reflexes. I'm no doctor but I don't even understand how it would make you move faster at all, just respond to stimuli quicker. Your nerves might be enhanced but your muscles are still the same. Wired reflexes at least explains the extra speed fluff wise as flooding your system with more adrenaline.

That being said I know martial artists with lightning quick reflexes and unless you threw a punch at them you would never realize. Someone could be an incredibly fast runner but still walk at a normal rate. When you move your mouse on your computer you, presumably, don't jerk it around eight inches at once. There's no reason for someone with an enhanced nervous system to be running around lightning quick, spazzing out at the slightest thing, and otherwise being incredibly obvious about it. Same with wired reflexes. Just because they're 'on' doesn't mean they're obvious. Someone could walk around living a normal life with synaptic boosters all day. If someone pulled a gun on them they could certainly react in a hurry but it doesn't mean everything they do is SUPER ULTRA FAST TO THE MAXIMUM OVERDRIVE OF AWESOOOOMMEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TLDR: Always on is only a bad thing on something that has a noticeable disadvantage, like pain editors or sound filters.

[Michael Chandra]

Hey all,

Looking over the cyberware and bioware rules, stats, etc. I came across some interesting oddities and questions:

1) Upgrading?  I don't see any rules for upgrading cyberware, or replacing it?  As I recall, used to be a long time ago once essence was spent on cyberware it was spent, and if you later took it out, even to get new gear, you did not get any essence back, and had to spend again.  That made upgrading from say wired 2 to wired 3 a no go and you had to be really choosy about your gear, especially for a campaign that was intended to be long.  Eventually I think (and maybe this was house ruled) you could upgrade or replace cyberware having new pieces take the essence lost from an old piece, so you only paid the difference in essence lost.  If you replaced it with something that cost less essence you did not recoup the lost essence however.  Now in 5th I see nothing that talks about upgrading or changing out pieces of cyberware.  So what if someone wants to move from say an RCC 2 to an RCC 3 (since you cannot start with an RCC 3 at start), or perhaps improved from alpha to betaware?

You cannot upgrade, 'upgrading' is replacing (and selling the old stuff). Removing ware results in an essence hole. Essence Hole likely will be in the SR5 augmentation book, it's already confirmed for Shadowrun Missions as temporary rule until then.

[I_AM_ZHOUL!!!]

Having a reaction of 12 is a pretty big advantage.  R3 Reaction Enhancers plus R3 Wired Reflexes plus a natural Reaction of 6.  Only Adepts can come close to that kind of dodge pool.  The difference in cash between Synaptic Booster and Wired Reflexes even covers the cost of the Reaction Enhancers.

Your average Street Samurai cares very little about his Essence score.  As long as it's above the threshold of cyber psychosis. It is fairly common to start with Wired Reflexes due to the cost then upgrade to Synaptic Boosters and add some Muscle Toner and Augmentation when the nuyen starts to flow, take the 2 essence hole left by the Wired Reflexes and fill it with augmented ability.

What you're describing is illegal... cyberware (/nanotech) & bioware (/genetech) are tracked separately as essence loss. You cant fill a cyberware essence hole with bioware and vice versa. At least that's how it worked in 4th (we didn't have bioware back in 2nd) and I'm pretty sure that it'll stay the same when the augmentation book comes out. Cause you used to only suffer x.5 essence loss from the lesser of the 2 subtotals to your total essence loss... which my Type O system Street Samurai made use of it get essentially delta grade augmentations from everything except my synaptic boosters....

As far as the OP point... yes WR is expensive and I've never had a level 3 system in the entirety of my playing (which goes back to when that was all we had) but I did have a Move by Wire 3 once (though that was in a cheese power game that was just pretty ridiculous and involved Betaware, Adaspidin, and the 10BP quality) but 5th edition has nerfed so many of the loophole you could use in 4th edition.... you cant stack a superthyroid gland onto your stats anymore, so WR lets you use Reaction Enhancers as well as drugs or magic... Synaptic Booster isn't compatible with anything else... so a WR 2 coupled with some Reaction Enhancers would be fine if you use bioware for everything else since it will end up getting the x.5 multipler applied to it...

[Michael Chandra]

What you're describing is illegal... cyberware (/nanotech) & bioware (/genetech) are tracked separately as essence loss. You cant fill a cyberware essence hole with bioware and vice versa. At least that's how it worked in 4th (we didn't have bioware back in 2nd) and I'm pretty sure that it'll stay the same when the augmentation book comes out. Cause you used to only suffer x.5 essence loss from the lesser of the 2 subtotals to your total essence loss... which my Type O system Street Samurai made use of it get essentially delta grade augmentations from everything except my synaptic boosters....

It worked like that in SR4, perhaps, but that also was plain silly. Furthermore, SR5 doesn't track the two separately anymore, so I doubt it will track them separately for the essence hole. The Missions rules also do not discriminate by type.

[I_AM_ZHOUL!!!]

SR4 didn't track them separately either until Augmentation.... and it's my understanding that SR4 still applies unless SR5 has directly overwritten or changed the rule set... like in one of the other posts about using edge for spirits when oversummoning which SR5 hasn't directly covered yet but is fully detailed in SR4 Street Magic..... but I've been wrong plenty of times before in my life, no reason I can't be again....

[Michael Chandra]

Background Count and Essence Hole have temporary SR5 versions for Missions for now, which differ from SR4.