[Triskavanski]

Ah, well, I'll just make sure to pass the fade then. I do have edge for a reason. IF I have to, I'll take a few hours in between the tasks. Slow and Steady so to speak.

Basically,

Day 1, If not on a job - Compile a Sprite. If I took damage, rest, after using static veil to hide that sprite if possibly. Possibly start with a low level sprite to take little chance of taking stun damage, compile that, and then use that to springboard larger ones.

After resting, Register it. Rest again, once recovered, Re-register it. Keep doing this until I finish my army or I'm needing to not take stun damage.

[Michael Chandra]

Rough guideline I apply to limits: There's less than 10% chance you roll 50% or more hits. So a Sprite of Level 6 will likely do 12 fading or less. There is, however, a significant though small chance it will hurt like hell.

If you want to check your odds, try here: http://anydice.com/program/344e

output [highest of 0 and 12d{0,0,2}-11d{0,0,1}]
output [highest of 0 and 12d{0,0,2}-11d{0,0,0,0,1,1,1,1,1}]

Those numbers represent a rating 6 Sprite at Registering (hence 12 dice) resisted with 11 fading dice, the second line is with Second Chance.

[Tagz]

I won't deny that TMs definitely took a hit in rebalancing from 4th.  But I think there are a couple things that a lot of people may be overlooking.

First, Resonance isn't nearly as important as it was in 4th.  It used to cap CFs, be involved in just about everything a TM did, either directly or indirectly.  Now in 5th, it's really only used in Threading, Compliling, Registering, and a few other things that arn't used as much as those three.  A TM with a low Res can still be an effective hacker using the same skills a decker would.  Even with a single point of Res, all the basic skills and actions are still open to the TM.  Granted, they can't "dump stat" Resonance completely, but taking a low priorety in Res and giving a small bump with the race's bonus points can help make up for this.

Another change to note is that the highest Level a TM can Thread at isn't 2x, it's 3x.  This means a TM with 6 Res can thread a Level 18 Resonace spike if they wanted.  Not that they would need to as most Threading is hit based rather then Level, so having a high Level isn't nearly as important.  Again, this allows a lot of threading to be used with lower amounts of Res.  A Res 4 would be able to do Level 12 abilities.  Probobly have to keep the skills at high levels to keep a nice dice pool, but it adds more flexability.  And Registered Sprites can always assist.

What does this ultimately do?  It means that a TM's compatibility with cyber and bio has gone way up.  Sure, they lose Resonance when they lose Essence but the loss isn't as significant or fatal to a TM.  Going from 6 Res to 5 Res only hurts a TM marginally.  And with a single point of Essence you can fit in some fun things.

Datajack - will let the TM direct connect, cuts out surrounding area noise, provides 1 noise reduction if wireless enabled

Cerebral Booster - Gives more Logic, increasing dice as well as Data Processing stat/limit

(My fav)  Pain Editor - Gives a point to Will increasing Firewall at the cost of 1 point of Intuition/Sleaze.  Avoidance rolls are Intuition + Firewall so the change is a wash with that particular roll.  The TM takes regular matrix damage as Stun damage, with the Pain Editor the TM can get a full track of Stun and stay up and fighting without wound modifiers.  Additionally with the change that it takes 2 Stun damage to deal 1 Physical when you overflow, the TM's track against regular matrix damage has become enormous with this implant (Stun track + (Phys Track x2)).

As other books come out, I'm sure the TMs will get some love, but keep in mind their new higher tolerance of implants when making one.  The Pain Editor's synergy was unexpected to me, so now I can't wait to see what the new augmentations in other books might allow a TM to do when they budget in a point of Essence loss.

[Namikaze]

(My fav)  Pain Editor - Gives a point to Will increasing Firewall at the cost of 1 point of Intuition/Sleaze.  Avoidance rolls are Intuition + Firewall so the change is a wash with that particular roll.  The TM takes regular matrix damage as Stun damage, with the Pain Editor the TM can get a full track of Stun and stay up and fighting without wound modifiers.  Additionally with the change that it takes 2 Stun damage to deal 1 Physical when you overflow, the TM's track against regular matrix damage has become enormous with this implant (Stun track + (Phys Track x2)).

As other books come out, I'm sure the TMs will get some love, but keep in mind their new higher tolerance of implants when making one.  The Pain Editor's synergy was unexpected to me, so now I can't wait to see what the new augmentations in other books might allow a TM to do when they budget in a point of Essence loss.

I had never considered this.  Good find!

[firebug]

Saying TMs can use programs because of their Echo is a weak point.  It is simply not worth 13 Karma, minimum, to gain access to single program that a decker can have for a piddly little 250¥.  In no way is that fair.  And in order for it to eventually become an advantage over the decker, you'd need to submerge four or five times, costing you at least 69 Karma, and even then, that's only giving you four programs that you have on all the time without any of the intense flexibility that a decker has with his programs.

A program is not equal to an echo.

The Argument was "Technomancers can't use programs!", which I had provided as invalid.

You're also missing quite a bit of other things in the comparison here. Namely the Y cost.

Yes the program is either 80Y or 250Y. But you also forget the Deck.

A Decker would need to spend at least 49,500Y To run a single program or even begin decking. He'd only be able to run A single program at a time. Making the total cost to do just the basic Decking, 49,250.

For the decker to run 4 programs at the same time, he'd need 345,000Y 1000Y for the programs. So, 346kY or 173 Karma based on the ability to use Karma for extra Y at the start of the game.

And that is just the cost of using a deck.

So while you spent 69 karma on submersion, You can spend your money for a lot more varied gear than just your deck. If you wanted to, you could even buy a deck and use that to run some additional programs by remote commanding it.

That might feel like a legitimate complaint, except for the fact that you will absolutely have a deck and the money to buy all of the programs with your start priorities.  It is essentially part of your character generation the same way that buying resonance is.  At the same starting point, a decker will absolutely be able to begin with all of those things, and I am talking about what it would take for an optomized TM to get those things after play.  Which would be absolutely required, because there is no way to begin play with four submersions.

But here's a little secret, the program Lockdown. Since Technomancers are not devices, they cannot be targeted with things like Crash Program. Combined with Fualt Sprites, you can quickly make someones day pretty bad.

Compiled Sprites can also sustain a complex form, as a single task, which could be used in Resonance Channel to remove noise due to distance.

You can also use Diffusion of [Matrix Attribute] against devices, then get a sprite to handle the sustain as well.

Targetting someone's programs doesn't feel like a terribly valid tactic, but that is probably just my own opinion of "why weaken when you can just disable."

Registered sprites can sustain it, using one of the tasks you spent hours giving them.  For a few combat turns, which, while likely long enough for a single matrix combat, is not enough if you're hoping to sustain it throughout an entire run.  It also gives them the penalty instead, making them less effective while they do it.  Resonance Channel stopping noise due to distance is not a huge deal.  Most noise is caused by jammers or is just background noise caused by the area in.  If you're using even a lax amount of the background noise rules, it's encountered very often.  Or if you just decide that is rarely comes up, then most of the time you still don't need to worry about noise from distance, as that's primarily a problem for riggers (which TMs suck at being), and Resonance Channel won't save you from a jammer when you most need it.

Diffusion of [Matrix Attribute] requires a moderately high Level to be effective.  Assuming you want to decrease an attribute by more than 2, you'd likely need to try and resist 6 or more Fading.  I suppose that's not so bad though.

But see, part of my problem is that you are essentially saying "A technomancer doesn't need to rely on their special abilities!  They can just do what deckers do, too!"  But if you're not making use of those abilities, especially if you ever buy a deck for whatever reason, you should have just made a mundane decker.  A technomancer should not have to buy things a decker has in order to be comparable to them.  The whole point is that they are supposed to accomplish the same thing using different methods; the more of a TM's uniqueness you give up, the more pointless it is to be one.

Yet, Mages don't go around everywhere constantly casting probe thought all the time, using magic fingers to open doors, or other various actions that normal people do in the real world. Do you as a Mage cast physical barriers to make cover and then stand behind that? Or do you use that only when you have no other choice or its the /best/ choice?

If you're a cybersolider, do you open doors or punch through them all because your special abilites in your fist allow you to do so, so you MUST use it all the time.

You're a technomancer, not an AI. Mages don't spend all their money on ONLY magic things. Similar with Phys Adept vs something like a Street Samurai. You can spend all your power on doing "unique" things like being able to kill people with your magic fists. Or you can be more subtle about it. A Mage could use a gun, or he could use fireball. If someone puts up an astral barrier, the mage doesn't sit and cry if he doesn't have a way around it. He picks up his gun and shoots the guy on the other side if he has to.

The uniqueness of a Technomancer isn't /constantly/ threading complex forms and the like. No, Its the ability to constantly be online. Its the ability to be able to hack non-stop without GOD coming down and bricking your device. You are not a replacement for technology, because technology is your plaything.

Those comparisons are not equivalent to my complaint.  A mage over-using magic to affect the physical isn't what the comparison would be.  It's almost completely irrelevant.  The kind of thing I'm talking about would be if the only way to make a Phys. Adept who was a good combatant was to rely on augmentation to the point where you'd be better of making a Street Samurai, because you aren't making use of what being a Phys. Adept gives you--  Both on their "home ground" in combat.  I'm not talking about a TM being useless outside of his element.  I'm saying one shouldn't have to work so hard to be comparable to a decker in their focus, in their home-ground.

(My fav)  Pain Editor - Gives a point to Will increasing Firewall at the cost of 1 point of Intuition/Sleaze.  Avoidance rolls are Intuition + Firewall so the change is a wash with that particular roll.  The TM takes regular matrix damage as Stun damage, with the Pain Editor the TM can get a full track of Stun and stay up and fighting without wound modifiers.  Additionally with the change that it takes 2 Stun damage to deal 1 Physical when you overflow, the TM's track against regular matrix damage has become enormous with this implant (Stun track + (Phys Track x2)).

As other books come out, I'm sure the TMs will get some love, but keep in mind their new higher tolerance of implants when making one.  The Pain Editor's synergy was unexpected to me, so now I can't wait to see what the new augmentations in other books might allow a TM to do when they budget in a point of Essence loss.

I had never considered this.  Good find!

Definitely a good choice if you decide to go for augmentation.  In particular, my TM will eventually have a Betaware R5 Skilljack, Betaware R5 Skillwires, and the Paint Editor.  Expensive as hell, but it's the only way I can get her to feel less crazy vulnerable inside and outside of the matrix.

[Triskavanski]

Alright, look..

1) Technomancers are the 'ghost in the shell' .  What I mean by this is that they are not guys who just pound pound pound pound on the door like a decker does. Especially at the start. Like I showed earlier, doing Static Veil and then sustaining it with your focused concentration or a sprite can enable you to spend hours, connected to the net after your GOD score started. Because now, it doesn't increase at all. Once a Decker's GOD score starts, there is little they can do to stop it beyond rebooting.

Now that you can wait indefinitely watching the castle grounds, you don't have to start running up screaming with your battering ram to take it on like deckers do. You can wait for the right opportunity because now you have time to look for that opportunity.  Granted your team might not have the time, but they might not really have the time for a decker to reboot his deck in mid operation. Unlike the decker though, you have a powerful tool in your hands. You have Choice.

2) They are called /techno/mancers. not /ludite/mancers. Sometimes you will need to use technology to solve problems. Sometimes using a bit of it here and there actually would allow you to do things beyond your normal capabilities.

For example you bring up Jammers as the defacto of all the noise that will ever happen. Implying that a  decker has some magical abilities to interface with things wirelessly without suffering the effects of a Jammer. And the technomancers magical abilities can't do anything against it either, oh wait.. You are not a device. And Jammers only affect devices. So.. yeah. Seems your magical abilities do actually ignore jammers.

And the same thing with Head jammers. There is like literately no possible way to /stop/ you from technomancing beyond beating the snot out of you or killing you. But at long as you're not /stupid/ and do things to avoid getting caught being a technomancer, there is also no way to detect that you even are one.

Though if you still must run agents, then yes, get a deck to run one or two of them. But you're not chained to that deck.

3) You are a biological machine.
What this means is there are /ways/ of augmenting yourself without augmenting yourself.
Namely I'm speaking of Drugs.

Need +1 on your sleeze? Take Cram, Jazz
Need +1 on your Firewall? Take Deepweed. Kamakazi
Need  to run for four days straight? Long Haul
Need +2 to firewall? Nitro
Need +1 to attack? Novacoke
Need +1 Data Processing +1 to Sleeze? Psyche

Not that I'm saying take these all the time. They do come with their own problems, obviously.



4)
Looking at the best cyberdeck.. Its got

9,8,7,6 for its stats. Assuming you run a program for each of those stats, You're looking at 10, 9,8,7.

With a human Technomancer who doesn't want to use up any of his essence to enhance his brain deck, the best you can do is 6,6,6,6.
Oh, but now you go and spend 28 karma (or 14 at character creation) to raise your max attribute
for any of your stats, by 1. Now you can achieve 7,6,6,6.

You can submerse then 8 times, I know, that is a lot of karma, but what they used there is a lot of money. Doing this gives you 9,8,8,8 And 4 more submersions gives you the four programs that are 'so dreadfully important, giving you a 10,9,9,9 brain deck.

granted you've got to raise your resonance to get that high, but at the other poster pointed out, Resonance really isn't that important that you need every last drop. Meaning you can take cyberware and bioware.

First off is his Pain Editor. And if you wanted to, you could take the Cerebral booster, giving you either 14,9,9,9 or 10,13,9,9. Throw in a few drugs, and you can do all sorts of boosts to your brain deck.

Best of all, it doesn't just stop there. The decker has hit his limit. He cannot progress any further at all. The Technomancer can however.  You can keep submersing, increasing your resonance, increasing the number of programs ran at once, even increasing the bioware and cyberware you'd want. Though you really don't need anymore I think.

[Insaniac99]

Alright, look..

1) Technomancers are the 'ghost in the shell' .  What I mean by this is that they are not guys who just pound pound pound pound on the door like a decker does. Especially at the start. Like I showed earlier, doing Static Veil and then sustaining it with your focused concentration or a sprite can enable you to spend hours, connected to the net after your GOD score started. Because now, it doesn't increase at all. Once a Decker's GOD score starts, there is little they can do to stop it beyond rebooting.

Now that you can wait indefinitely watching the castle grounds, you don't have to start running up screaming with your battering ram to take it on like deckers do. You can wait for the right opportunity because now you have time to look for that opportunity.  Granted your team might not have the time, but they might not really have the time for a decker to reboot his deck in mid operation. Unlike the decker though, you have a powerful tool in your hands. You have Choice.

Even better than just doing that, if you get focused concentration at level 2; which is all you need to sustain Static veil then you start using Cleaner.  Let's say you are only an average technomancer with 4 willpower and 5 resonance. here is what you would do

• You hack the a few marks on your target either by yourself or with the help of some pre-registered crack sprites
• Dismiss your your sprite; Thread Static Veil at level 1 or 2 (DV will be 2, despite the FV being L-1) and sustain it using focused concentration with your 9 dice, you are likely to get your two hits
• start threading Cleaner at a low force you can easily resist the drain; with only our average 9 dice you would want to pick level 1-2 so fading is only 2 or 3. if you stick to FV 2, 86% of the time you won't take any stun -- good enough odds for me. ( http://anydice.com/program/345a )
• repeat step 3 until Overwatch score is 0; with your 2 fading and 9 dice to resist, you could have a fading value of 39 and only be taking 6 stun to resist.  Due to averages, you aren't very likely to take much more than that.
• Depending on the interpretation you now are either
  • completely ignored by GOD and can drop Static Veil;
  • or you still need to maintain Static veil, but now you still have your marks, have 0 overwatch, and are ready to continue for WAY longer than any other decker.
   

As you get better you can do this more and do this better.  No decker can hope to stay in as long as you.   It seems to me that low level technomancers suck, mid levels ones are competitive but different, and high level ones are the true gods of the matrix.

[jim1701]

Most RPG's have a class or two that lag behind other classes at chargen in exchange for above average potential later on down the road. 

[RHat]

No decker can hope to stay in as long as you.

Which doesn't matter at all right now - whatever you need to do you can get done in the time a decker has.  It MIGHT come Data Trails, but by then deckers will have Deep Runs so it won't matter anyways.

[JackVII]

Which doesn't matter at all right now - whatever you need to do you can get done in the time a decker has.  It MIGHT come Data Trails, but by then deckers will have Deep Runs so it won't matter anyways.

While I do think TMs suck presently, I can see a few niche uses for not having to reboot like long-term Trace Icon tracking someone through a city. If you could get into and out of a Host without tripping alerts, you could pre-mark a bunch of stuff, then clear your OS, and Static Veil, exit the Host, then just wait for the team to go in. Lot less chance of discovery then.

But again, it's niche and very much depends on how often people check their stuff for MARKs.

[RHat]

And if you actually pay attention to things like the duration on Cleaner, you'll notice it's a LOT worse than you might think.

[JackVII]

And if you actually pay attention to things like the duration on Cleaner, you'll notice it's a LOT worse than you might think.

I'm confused on this point. It's duration is (P), so you just have to sustain it for (L) CTs for its effect to be permanent. Obviously, future illegal actions would add to your score, but I must be missing something?

[Triskavanski]

I'm apparently missing what the problem is with Cleaner as well.

[Michael Chandra]

I had a player hack 8 commlinks to score Traces so everyone knew where the potential attackers were. If I hadn't rolled poorly, he'd have been kicked out by G.O.D. for that stunt. Being able to lower OS would have been quite nice.

[Insaniac99]

No decker can hope to stay in as long as you.

Which doesn't matter at all right now - whatever you need to do you can get done in the time a decker has.  It MIGHT come Data Trails, but by then deckers will have Deep Runs so it won't matter anyways.

Uh, There are a lot of reasons to do this.  For example if you are casing a joint, you can get marks on the security team hours in advance of go time -- when it is time to attack they are at your mercy.  The long term traces are extra useful for infiltration and tracking.  And (as Michael pointed out) if you are willing and able to go slow you can hack much more overall because you just pause and reset your Overwatch score.

And if you actually pay attention to things like the duration on Cleaner, you'll notice it's a LOT worse than you might think.

I assume you are talkinga bout the sustaining penalty?  It's a non issue in this case.  You must sustain it for two combat turns, you can thread it as many times as you need to and stop when you are no longer sure of getting the 2 hits that your limit is at.  Because you aren't in a hurry due to Static Veil, you can take as long as you need to reduce it to zero.  You could reduce your OS from 39 to 0 in just under 2 minutes if you don't want to roll with any penalties at all (39/2 = 19.5 casts of Cleaner; 19.5 casts * 2 combat round wait *3 seconds = 117 seconds to zero out a maxed score)

None of this affects your drain, If you want to limit your negative to -2 then you only cast it once per combat turn instead of ever other turn and you get it done in under a minute.  If you need to get it done faster then you use registered sprites to help you sustain in.

The point is, Technomancers can hack early, often, and for longer than deckers; they do it slow and methodically.  Deckers do the fast hack and jack and can't maintain it.  Both are viable, but there have already been multiple times in my games where being able to do a moderately long hack would help a lot.  On a simple insertion (level 3 host) where the decker didn't fail a single roll, didn't trigger ice, and was just doing overwatch for the adept sneaking in; she had gotten an overwatch score of 32 by the time the adept was at the target with things so close; the adept had to change plans and get out really fast before the decker was caught or unable to help him get out.