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[SR5] Data Trails?

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Triskavanski

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« Reply #285 on: <06-14-15/2319:59> »
I don't see why Programs should be limited. Its not like the technomancer can just switch them out whilly nilly like. Even if it was program per submerssion grade, you're talking boatloads of karma to get that many programs. A decker being able to switch them out rapidly allows him to adapt to the situation at hand quickly and readily, while technomancers lack that ability.

For the Living persona matrix attribute increases, I'd say run it similar to augmentated stats. You cannot put anymore more than 4 in anyone one stat. That caps out the ability at 16 submersion given you 4 points each. Or could cut that in half, and keep it the max a technomancer can get right now, but reduce the bottleneck.
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Elo_Ion

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« Reply #286 on: <06-15-15/0620:28> »
Commenting on Technomancers and the disappointment with them.....

As this Shadowrun is not a class based game for the most part. Overpowering  specifically to compare with a existing popular skillset, the matrix developers/exploiters.....
Is pointless. I'll remind you that deckers are not actually a character class as anyone can have some skill in it if they want.......

Their powers, Technomancers are developing to replace the matrix itself yet they exist as a byproduct of it.
No justification for the cowboyish decker/hacker as a rival.
 They are a person to envy and pity at the same time. I think their skills narrate that.



Csjarrat

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« Reply #287 on: <06-15-15/0925:42> »
Commenting on Technomancers and the disappointment with them.....

As this Shadowrun is not a class based game for the most part. Overpowering  specifically to compare with a existing popular skillset, the matrix developers/exploiters.....
Is pointless. I'll remind you that deckers are not actually a character class as anyone can have some skill in it if they want.......

Their powers, Technomancers are developing to replace the matrix itself yet they exist as a byproduct of it.
No justification for the cowboyish decker/hacker as a rival.
 They are a person to envy and pity at the same time. I think their skills narrate that.
i think youre kind of missing the point; no one would be moaning if they had loads of flavourful and unique abilities that were useful to the team that also set them aside from deckers, plus were well balanced and the cost/benefit of using those skills was right.
As it is now, they're nigh-on impossible to build flexibly under standard or sum-to-ten because they're dependent on having high stats, skills and resonance to be useful.
Once you've got through chargen, you're then faced with a situation of having dicepools way behind the equivalent decker and punishingly high fading codes to dissuade you from using your only unique abilities.
In tabletop wargaming, we call that poor internal balance, ie, the balance of TMs is such that if you're playing with "winning" in mind, they're a subpar choice compared to their decker rivals (on the proviso of certain measures, like attempting to hack a host etc).
Immediately, the counter argument is that "you should play characters, not classes" and yeah i respect that. plenty of people play that way. Plenty don't though, and want to be able to walk upto a new table and know that they can deal with the matrix without having to have a GM handwaive, houserule or dumb-down matrix opposition just to make their char choice work.
My argument is that the chargen system basically forces you into being a human (d) with resources (e), leaving attributes at A-B and skills/resonance at B-C.
Thats fine if that's what your "character" is, but the second you want to make an Ork Techno, or god forbid, a Troll techno, you're essentially shit out of luck if you want to be half decent at covering the team in the matrix.
Having an entire "class" (yeah i know, we're classless technically, but for TMs and mages, not so much) basically work best as a prop to make a decker better isn't great for motivating people to play them, especially if they're also forced into being humans that start the game pretty much skint and with bare-bones equipment, poor physical stats, low meat-world skill pools and who then take a stack of stun damage everytime they use their powers.

they really need a lick of paint imho, which is a shame because they've got so much potential and such interesting fluff
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Elo_Ion

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« Reply #288 on: <06-15-15/1055:35> »
I'm going to summarize that your point is you wish that internal balance be addressed.

Your war-gaming reference does make a good arguement. If a player is not able to accomplish their goal them what is the point?

But consider this; the goal of a RPG is not essentially straight foward. Players build characters, DM's build a character list too.The purpose is interaction in the form of role playing first. It's the only way to address that internal balance you mentioned....

But what if the goal changes? Now it's not to destroy the enemy, In this case the 'matrix' how do you handle that?
Guns and armor and earth shaking spells are now the reason of imbalance.
 The players and DM interact in a narrative and hopefully restore the balance.....

From a narrative point of view Techomancers are a manifestation of that roleplaying potential, seeking internal balance through other players and their potential. just like deckers need a hand, damage mages can't do it alone, etc, etc......
 

Sengir

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« Reply #289 on: <06-15-15/1244:09> »
From a narrative point of view Techomancers are a manifestation of that roleplaying potential, seeking internal balance through other players and their potential
So stop beating around the bush, what is that great potential of TMs you keep talking about?

schenn

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« Reply #290 on: <06-15-15/1332:27> »
My two cents.

What I've learned after trying and failing to make numerous functional TMs, is that the TM is a summoner class. Not a skill class. "But Schenn", you say. SR is Classless!  Unless you're playing a TM, than in order to complete the tasks you're supposed to be able to handle, you better be 'classed' properly. Otherwise as soon as any enemy decker or black ic on the local corporate host sees you, you're dead.  Get Resonance at an A or B and put the free points into compile and register. When picking skills, pick ONE matrix skill to be your dominant (Hacking, Cybercombat or Computer) the others are minor skills to be developed over time. Teamwork your matrix actions as much as you can with your sprites (remember, services are vague. "Help me retrieve the data from the system" is a single service that would include hacking, searching, combat, etc.)  and when you can't teamwork, leave the work to the relevant sprite, helping with your complex forms (like Diffusion: Firewall).

Remember, Resonance is for both performing technomancer abilities and resisting the high fading from those abilities. It is your most important stat as a TM. Low Resonance doesn't just mean lack of 'power' it also means taking stun damage on every use of a tm power against anything larger than a meta-link (unless the owner is a mage, than a low resonance TM still won't be able to make a dent due to the effect of Willpower on resisting matrix actions). A mages drain resistance comes from their mental stats. So a mage can be weak with magic but still have good mental stats for resisting the drain. They can still cast spells (or overcast even) with a low magic, but TMs shouldn't be utilizing complex forms without high resonance.

Also, if you noticed, Resonance A, Attributes B (or vice versa) means no Troll TMs and very low starting resources consistently. Meaning nearly all TMs end up looking the same. Human, poor, super attributes and weak skills. Meaning RPing a TM isn't as fun because any 'flavor' makes you useless in the role you're 'supposed to be' amazing at when compared to the flexibility of every other character build.


Back to the discussion we were having about submerging...

If you went up against a Mage who had done what the TM example had done (Initiate 10 times and upgrade their special attribute to keep up with its maximum)

+ 10 dice to resisting drain
+ 4 to Magic (meaning maximum force for a spell is 20.  (Lightning bolt : base DV of 20 and an AP of -20. 16 dice to cast vs approx 8 dice to dodge and a total of 1 die to resist damage. The mage needs 10 hits for it to be physical drain, and even then they get +10 dice to resist that drain)
+ 10 to threshold for your magic to be linked to you by assensing
+ ability to hide + 10 dice for hiding your aura
+ 1 configurable sustained spell no longer has negative sustained modifier (quickening)
+ 10 dice for resisting hostile spells.
+ 1 other metamagics which usually gain initiate grade (+10 in this example) in bonus die to their pools.

Notice the lack of limits. Because Karma IS the limit. Just like with technomancers and submerging. Which is why Technomancer echo bonuses should be based off submersion grade (when applicable), not just a +1 to 'something'.

Back to Technomancers:
+10 submersions currently will result in
 
(edit: +4 to Resonance)
+1 Attack
+1 DP
+1 FW
+1 Sleaze
+2 resist biofeedback
+1d6 matrix init
+3 Control Rig

When comparing the effects, it becomes very apparent that the benefits of submerging are not balanced against the cost of submerging. Especially when almost all of those same upgrades can be individually purchased by a decker for a small bit of nuyen, which based off the Missions working for the people conversion rate, works out to about 5-7 karma each, or less than half the cost of submerging.
« Last Edit: <06-15-15/2254:20> by schenn »

noddy_93

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« Reply #291 on: <06-16-15/0511:20> »
I totally agree, that echo bonus are often too weak compared to the karma invest.
But i do not see the point that a TM needs Resonance at Priority A. I use skills at A, Attributes at B and Resonance at C, which leaves me low edge to get to RES 6 with a human. Ok other metaraces are more difficult- i agree.
But you get a lot of skills with Prio A. I have all Matrix test with 12 dice and register, compile also at valuae of 6 meaning 12 dice with Resonance 6 also.
Not that bad.

schenn

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« Reply #292 on: <06-16-15/1206:51> »
That's what I thought too, I found the TM was still getting owned by rating 6 hosts and commlinks (who get just as much dice as you do for resisting your actions) and that the complex forms were just too useful, even with their high drain, to not take.

For my current working TM:

Resonance A  (Compile, Register, [Cleaner, Diff: Firewall, Editor, Puppeteer, Static Veil and Stitches)
Attributes B   
Skills C
Human D  (Edge +3)
Resources E

There's 10 free skill points for taking Resonance at A vs C.  (Skills A gives 46 skill points, Skills B gives 36, Skills C gives 28)   Skills A + Resonance C == 46 total skill points.  Skills B + Resonance C = 36 total skill points.  Skills C + Resonance A = 38 total skill points.  Skills C + Resonance B = 36 total skill points.   Resonance A also grants 4 additional complex forms over Resonance C (total of 16 karma) so it's a choice of whether you want to start with a little more Skills or more TM complex forms.  Without the CFs, TM's gain no advantages to their hacking like deckers do with programs, so a TM will want to use their CFs to improve their hacking. But that's karma or reduced skills. (Which is fair and balanced imo).

Either way, my point was about the echos and the lack of flexibility available to a TM for role-playing purposes.  The builds almost always look the same at the end of the day because there are only two ways to build a TM.  Resonance A, Attributes B, Skills C, Human D, Resources E   OR    Skills A, Attributes B, Resonance C, Human D, Resources E.
« Last Edit: <06-16-15/1208:59> by schenn »

schenn

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« Reply #293 on: <06-16-15/1214:15> »
You have compile but what about register?  Don't forget your sprites very existence steadily increases OS unless it's registered or hidden by a Complex Form.

Triskavanski

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« Reply #294 on: <06-16-15/2117:32> »
I'm going to summarize that your point is you wish that internal balance be addressed.

Your war-gaming reference does make a good arguement. If a player is not able to accomplish their goal them what is the point?

But consider this; the goal of a RPG is not essentially straight foward. Players build characters, DM's build a character list too.The purpose is interaction in the form of role playing first. It's the only way to address that internal balance you mentioned....

But what if the goal changes? Now it's not to destroy the enemy, In this case the 'matrix' how do you handle that?
Guns and armor and earth shaking spells are now the reason of imbalance.
 The players and DM interact in a narrative and hopefully restore the balance.....

From a narrative point of view Techomancers are a manifestation of that roleplaying potential, seeking internal balance through other players and their potential. just like deckers need a hand, damage mages can't do it alone, etc, etc......

The problem is their potential isn't even written in the rules.

Case the Matrix. Be a decker. Or be a mage. Yes a mage. Why a mage? You honestly should see one of the mages I've seen. He does everything. If the goals change, he can switch right along with it.

From a Narrative stand point anything could have roleplaying potential. A watch could be the main character of the entire show, and the savior in the end, that manages to stop a guy from bleeding to death by sacrificing itself.

But technomancers are not that watch. They're that bit of fur in the background during scene 24 that while the scene had a bit of good acting, the fur just continued to sit there. Unless you try really really really hard to get the character going, and come out something like The Room by Tommy Wiso (However you spell his last name)
Concepts are great, but implementation sucks. Why not improve it?

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JmOz01

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« Reply #295 on: <06-16-15/2209:36> »
I'm going to summarize that your point is you wish that internal balance be addressed.

Your war-gaming reference does make a good arguement. If a player is not able to accomplish their goal them what is the point?

But consider this; the goal of a RPG is not essentially straight foward. Players build characters, DM's build a character list too.The purpose is interaction in the form of role playing first. It's the only way to address that internal balance you mentioned....

But what if the goal changes? Now it's not to destroy the enemy, In this case the 'matrix' how do you handle that?
Guns and armor and earth shaking spells are now the reason of imbalance.
 The players and DM interact in a narrative and hopefully restore the balance.....

From a narrative point of view Techomancers are a manifestation of that roleplaying potential, seeking internal balance through other players and their potential. just like deckers need a hand, damage mages can't do it alone, etc, etc......

The problem is their potential isn't even written in the rules.

Case the Matrix. Be a decker. Or be a mage. Yes a mage. Why a mage? You honestly should see one of the mages I've seen. He does everything. If the goals change, he can switch right along with it.

From a Narrative stand point anything could have roleplaying potential. A watch could be the main character of the entire show, and the savior in the end, that manages to stop a guy from bleeding to death by sacrificing itself.

But technomancers are not that watch. They're that bit of fur in the background during scene 24 that while the scene had a bit of good acting, the fur just continued to sit there. Unless you try really really really hard to get the character going, and come out something like The Room by Tommy Wiso (However you spell his last name)

Think you could post said mage?  Would be really interested in seeing it as I have been trying to do something similar with mixed results...

noddy_93

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« Reply #296 on: <06-17-15/0925:42> »
Schenn for the Priority A Skills you forgot the 10 Group Points which gives you an additional 6 in a skill group usually three skills all at 6 and 4 in another group an additional three skills.
But it is true you have to buy additional  CF with Karma...
as always.

Elo_Ion

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« Reply #297 on: <06-17-15/1736:20> »
I'm going to summarize that your point is you wish that internal balance be addressed.

Your war-gaming reference does make a good arguement. If a player is not able to accomplish their goal them what is the point?

But consider this; the goal of a RPG is not essentially straight foward. Players build characters, DM's build a character list too.The purpose is interaction in the form of role playing first. It's the only way to address that internal balance you mentioned....

But what if the goal changes? Now it's not to destroy the enemy, In this case the 'matrix' how do you handle that?
Guns and armor and earth shaking spells are now the reason of imbalance.
 The players and DM interact in a narrative and hopefully restore the balance.....

From a narrative point of view Techomancers are a manifestation of that roleplaying potential, seeking internal balance through other players and their potential. just like deckers need a hand, damage mages can't do it alone, etc, etc......

The problem is their potential isn't even written in the rules.

Case the Matrix. Be a decker. Or be a mage. Yes a mage. Why a mage? You honestly should see one of the mages I've seen. He does everything. If the goals change, he can switch right along with it.

From a Narrative stand point anything could have roleplaying potential. A watch could be the main character of the entire show, and the savior in the end, that manages to stop a guy from bleeding to death by sacrificing itself.

But technomancers are not that watch. They're that bit of fur in the background during scene 24 that while the scene had a bit of good acting, the fur just continued to sit there. Unless you try really really really hard to get the character going, and come out something like The Room by Tommy Wiso (However you spell his last name)

And there is nothing about the skills of a technomancer that won't allow for such potnetial to be fun to play. Even more than that watch......
The problem people accuse of is;
With everything they do well, they do not replace a hacker, who is a major archtype....?
They do not command the matrix with a god-like hand...?

Yet every archtype tends not to have any skill in another's area. They rely on the other characters to do what they do well.

ScytheKnight

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« Reply #298 on: <06-17-15/1820:53> »
@Elo_Ion yes, people are complaining that one of the two hacker archetypes is a piss poor hacker... what is so hard to understand about that?
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Triskavanski

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« Reply #299 on: <06-18-15/2021:49> »
And there is nothing about the skills of a technomancer that won't allow for such potnetial to be fun to play. Even more than that watch......
The problem people accuse of is;
With everything they do well, they do not replace a hacker, who is a major archtype....?
They do not command the matrix with a god-like hand...?

Yet every archtype tends not to have any skill in another's area. They rely on the other characters to do what they do well.

Actually with the importance of having Programs, and Technomancers starting with none, the lose out on a lot of stuff early on, and as you start going into midgame, they're still trying to run behind the Decker in terms of being able to do hacking.

Data searches take Decker's half the time a Technomancer does from day 1. They're capable of Direct connecting to things, from day 1, without a whole big argument over what is written in the book being right, or what is not written in the book being right. (It doesn't say you can.. So you can't vs It doesn't say I can't, so I can.)

Technomancers in some peoples interpretations benefit from absolutely no item that would allow them to be a better hacker with the one thing that actually makes a technomancer worth a damn, The living Persona.

To put this in some other terms using a mage, It would be like saying a mage cannot use any mundane item while using their magic.


And "Archetypes not having another's skills.." Not at all. Lots of the other archetypes blend together different skills. Yes, a Street sam isn't going to have spell casting. But what he has is bullet. And tends to find if bullet doesn't work, use more bullet. Mages on the other hand find if magic doesn't work, use more magic. A decker could easily be a street-sam light, same with a rigger. A street sam could be a rigger or decker. An adept could even do things like a street sam, sans the ware.

Then over there. You have the one archetype with no real physical presence abilities. No magic abilities. Often no social abilities. (They'll never be able to do as well as a social adept, who could use his charms as a weapon) The only thing that they have is some matrix ability. And while They can be some what tough there, they can't really be powerful. It takes a helluva lot of thinking outside the box, especially with how slow matrix is. 
Concepts are great, but implementation sucks. Why not improve it?

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