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[SR5] Data Trails?

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noddy_93

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« Reply #270 on: <06-11-15/0330:59> »
Hello do the Echos from the core rulebook MOM and MRI from data trails stag giving a possible rigger console value of 6?
Otherwise the echo really makes no sense at all

PiXeL01

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« Reply #271 on: <06-11-15/0353:30> »
Nope, it's just a copy :/
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noddy_93

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« Reply #272 on: <06-11-15/0537:03> »
But why does it have another name then? And who needed a reprint just for clarification, that a data jack and data cable is not included?
That makes absolutly no sense.

Novocrane

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« Reply #273 on: <06-11-15/0702:15> »
... Yes. We're all waiting for the FAQ, updated errata, and whatever else is coming.

Zweiblumen

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« Reply #274 on: <06-12-15/1329:14> »
A sidebar with an optional rule for Resonance [Program] would be nice.
Two suggestions that come to mind are,
Each time you take it you open up a program slot to put any program.
or take it once and you have a number of program slots equal to your submersion grade.
I'm using the later as a house rule.

I love the second one. I'd love to see something like the [A/S/D/F] Upgrade increase in power with your submersion grade.  Something like Grade/2 (rounded down)max of 2?  Dunno, that makes the power step very severe.  1st submerge attack +1, 2nd submerge sleeze +1, 3rd submerge dp +1, 4th submerge ASDF +2 :/  dunno, but something like that.
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Malevolence

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« Reply #275 on: <06-12-15/1426:37> »
A lot of good ideas, but I just want to caution people that Submersion Grade and Resonance are unbounded, so tying benefits to them with no other limitation is not feasible long term for many features. If you allow people to have program slots at Submersion Grade or Resonance (or even something like Resonance/2), eventually they will have the ability to run 10 programs at once (or 20, or 40, etc). Same with matrix attributes, etc. Just keep this in mind.


So, for the change to Resonance [Program], make it something like slots = Resonance/2 with a maximum of 6 (commensurate with the top of the line deck). This gives a fair number of program slots to start, but still keeps if from becoming ridiculous.


Having said that, I'd like to see most of the Technomancer Echoes errata'd to tie them to Submersion grade (or Resonance or some other attribute/skill) rather than require them to be taken over and over again. Something like:
A/S/D/F Upgrade (Replaces the four separate "[Attribute] Upgrade" echoes): This Echo can be taken up to four times, each time affecting a different Matrix Attribute. The corresponding Matrix Attribute of your Living Persona is raised by 1 point for each Submersion Grade up to 2. (I'd consider boosting the max to 3 or 4, but certain metatypes with certain drugs might be able to achieve some huge ratings. Probably not unbalancing, but it would require further evaluation. The achievable max should be somewhere around 9 or 10 to put it on more or less equal footing with the highest Attribute Array value, but that barrier is already broken with enhanced attribute spells, or any number of Race/augment/drug combinations)
Mind over Machine/MMRI: Level = Submersion Grade, limit 3.
Neurofilter: +1 dice per Submersion Grade, limit 2. Alternatively, make this like a Hardening Module with boxes=Resonance (or SG), Max=5.
Resonance [Program]: As mentioned above.
Mathemagics: Also increases the dice pool. Though there are much better suggestions elsewhere in this thread.

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Herr Brackhaus

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« Reply #276 on: <06-12-15/1504:04> »
Malevolence
That same concern applies to Initiation Grade and the metamagics that use it as a basis for X, yet there are no such limitations on them...

Miri

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« Reply #277 on: <06-12-15/1738:34> »
Malevolence
That same concern applies to Initiation Grade and the metamagics that use it as a basis for X, yet there are no such limitations on them...

Yeah but its MAGIC.. (almost) anything is possible with magic.

/s

Malevolence

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« Reply #278 on: <06-12-15/1744:55> »
I'm not saying that everything that is tied to Res/Mag or Initiation/Submersion Grade needs to be capped, I'm simply cautioning that some things should be bounded. Dice pool bonuses from metamagics tend to be limited to very limited tests such as hiding your signature, with the exception of (Adept) Centering which is potentially one of the best metamagics there is for that reason, though Drain is something unique to Awakened that mundane characters don't have to deal with. Shielding is also an obvious exception, but since it isn't applied to every roll it isn't quite as simple as calling it a dice pool bonus. None of the metamagics apply to dice pools or attributes that allow a mage to be better than a mundane at mundane things. For the technomancer you have to be wary of an Echo providing a bonus that makes her better than a decker at things that both can do - slightly better is fine, but significantly better without bound is not.


So, allowing Echoes to increase Matrix attributes is fine, but it needs to be bounded similar to how Physical and Mental attributes are.


With those caveats in mind, lets look at metamagics tied to Initiatiate Grade and/or Magic:


(Adept) Centering: Affects dice pool, no limit. This is the big exception which is not a significant problem as it allows the mage to overcome a weakness that is unique to Awakened, not provide a larger dice pool for something that Mundanes can do. Also, it is needed in order for a mage to be able to keep up with the increasing drain from more powerful spells, which are part of their advancement (the higher your Magic, the more powerful spells you can cast, incurring more drain).
Fixation/Masking: adds to dice pool, no limit. This again allows the mage to overcome a weakness that is specific to them and only affects other mages (or other astral denizens). It does not provide them a notable advantage over mundanes.
Spell Shaping: Tied to Magic Rating, and applies a -1 penalty to casting pool for each meter of change. In all, this could probably be a base mechanic and not be unbalanced due to the high cost incurred when using it.
Infusion: Tied to initiate grade and magic, no limit. The drain cost and GM selected power point loss balance this quite nicely, however.
Shielding: Affects dice pool, no limit. This is just plain good, but again only affects other mages/astral entities. It does not help the mage at all against mundanes.
QI sculpt: tied to initiate grade, no limit. A somewhat unique case, but it doesn't add power - it basically allows a Decker like swapping of points.
Air Walking: not a dice pool, but an effect based on initiate grade. Eventually the Adept can jump for kilometers - look out bad guys! Or any other Awakened could just learn Levitate.
Supernatural Prowess: Tied to magic and initiate grade, limited by the usual +4 limit to attribute enhancement.
Apex Predator: in some settings, this could be god-like. 99.9% of Shadowrun is not that setting. It's up to your GM to allow it in the remaining .1%.


...and so on.


All I'm suggesting is that you consider what impact it has tying an Echo's progression to Submersion Grade if the Technomancer is, say, Grade 10. Does it make him unstoppable or unbalancingly powerful? If so, put a cap on it.
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Triskavanski

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« Reply #279 on: <06-12-15/2129:37> »
I'd like to point out that you could end up just taking the program submersion 10 times as of right now and still have the same results.
Concepts are great, but implementation sucks. Why not improve it?

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PiXeL01

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« Reply #280 on: <06-12-15/2209:27> »
But by taking the same echo 10 times you are limiting yourself in way mages do not
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Triskavanski

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« Reply #281 on: <06-12-15/2237:15> »
Well of course. By being a Technomancer you're limiting yourself in ways that mages are not. A lot of that has to do with how much more a mage can scale what they do select, and how they can use their focus to compensate for area's they are weaker in.

An Adept taking Power point 10 times, has waaay more power increases than 10 programs. A decker could easily run up to 8 programs on his deck. Maybe more? all for the cost of about 2500~3000 nuyen on top of his deck. While running a deck that has 9,9,8,8 attributes. And his skills increased.

In order to submerge 10 times.. Thats 265, and it needs you to increase your Resonance by four assuming you have six points there at the start. Thats about 435 karma total. This is part of why Technomancer bottleneck and can never catch up with the rest of the team. Cause in the process of getting all that karma, the decker has also gotten it to increase his skills, and nuyen to increase his deck.
Concepts are great, but implementation sucks. Why not improve it?

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Malevolence

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« Reply #282 on: <06-13-15/0129:21> »
I'd like to point out that you could end up just taking the program submersion 10 times as of right now and still have the same results.
You could, but the opportunity cost would be immense - as it stands, you would have spent 435 karma for the ability to run 10 programs. Admittedly something that a decker could not do, but probably not all that useful. It is balanced at the high end by this opportunity cost and the fact that there are a limited number of programs. Also, the current iteration ties you to the programs that you choose - they aren't slots that can be used to run the program of your choice as needed, so it lacks the flexibility that the decker has.


If the proposed change was made to have it be program slots that you could load anything into as desired and it was tied to submersion grade or Resonance, then submerging ten times nets you ten program slots that can run any cyberprogram AND nine other Echoes. The removal of the opportunity cost significantly changes the dynamics. Especially if all of the other echoes are tied to submersion grade, because then you could have:
 1. 10 program slots
 2. +10 to Sleaze
 3. +10 to Firewall
 4. +10 to DP
 5. +10 to Attack
 6. +10 to resist biofeedback
 7. +1d6 to VR initiative
 8. A pain editor
 9. Skinlink
10. Rating 3 control rig


If other Echoes are introduced to grant other advantages a la Neurofilter, they could have +10 Fade resist and/or +10 Matrix Damage resist in place of one or two of the above. Note that the last four were not tied to Grade because that would be ridiculous and I don't think any one is arguing for that. And other than the control rig, it would be meaningless - +10d6 bonus to Hotsim initiative would be cut to +1d6 since the most dice you can roll for initiative is 5d6 and hotsim already gives you 4 of those, and Skinlink and Pain Editor have no rating to tie to SG as they are all or nothing abilities.


In short, all initiation Metamagics that are tied to Magic or Submersion grade have limits where appropriate and Technomancer Echoes should do likewise.


It's also worth noting that I replied to the wrong thread as I meant to post  my initial comment in the Technomancer feedback for a new book thread. I was only looking through the last few posts and saw ShadowMaster's suggested Techno changes and just assumed this was that thread.


Oops.


Carry on.
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Zweiblumen

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« Reply #283 on: <06-14-15/1928:44> »
I just want to point out that to have a submersion rating of 10, you'd need to submerge 6 times, then raise your resonance 4 times and then submerge 4 more times.
That's 435 karma.  Even if you averaged 10 karma a run you're looking at 44 runs and 34 weeks in raising your Resonance.  And you've not spent karma on anything else.  Your skills are still capped at chargen levels etc etc.  You'll be able to withstand an amazing amount of matrix damage, and you'll have a crazy number of programs running, but your die pool will still be comparably low (with god-like limits!).  Yes your data spike is going to do a stupid amount of damage... if you hit with it.  You'd be the ultimate matrix tank.  But you're looking at 16 dice for any of your (max of 6) CFs, and 16 or 17 dice for resisting fade, so you're going to be taking damage from most Forms that have a L+n FV.  You can get some pretty decent Sprites, I'll give you that.  But again, this is 5 years of (game-time, and at least a year of real time) work you've done here.

I think the scaling costs of submerging and raising Resonance do a good job to balance it out.
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schenn

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« Reply #284 on: <06-14-15/2307:35> »
2. +10 to Sleaze
 3. +10 to Firewall
 4. +10 to DP
 5. +10 to Attack

How about +Submersion Grade in configurable points to your living persona. So, only +10 divided amongst all your atts.  (Meaning that 10 submersions would put your persona on relatively equal ground with a rich decker)

Program slots could be limited by either Resonance or Mental Limit. problem solved.
« Last Edit: <06-14-15/2309:13> by schenn »