Adjustable strength bows

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« Reply #60 on: <02-06-14/1955:27> »
@Raleel: My personal view is that the original question was answered sufficiently and that the threat has evolved into a neighboring discussion. If you feel differently, I apologize and will take this somewhere else.
@ProfessorCirno: I don't know where you're getting this from. I never said bows needed to be weaker. I actually said that strength based weaponry is quite powerful and that it doesn't need additional help. [This is contained in my first post].
The fact that strength enhancement are so relatively easy to get was part of my reasoning for this. [This is in my second post]
I did point out that bows used to be a lot stronger and that this fact might have influenced the designer's decisions regarding their current power. [This is contained in my 5th post.]

Throughout the threat you claimed that strength based weaponry was both too weak and too expensive resource wise compared to guns. I disagreed with that assessment and explained to you why.

Repeating your statement does not make it stronger. Abandoning all realism is not a necessary or even reasonable consequence of introducing fictional elements. Every James Bond movie ever made contains fictional fantasy elements (Underwater Villain Hideout in 1977... .). This did not stop the movies from trying to be realistic in their portrayal of guns. You yourself have quoted Cyberpunk 2020 as a "realistic" setting, yet it is a setting that includes the option to condense your brain and vital organs into a box to be inserted into various cyborg bodies like a freaking VHS tape into a player, but still tries to keep their gun physics straight.

The priority system consists of five priorities, each of which is to be used once. That means that every character build with the priority system, by the definition of of the shadowrun 5 chargen system, is functionally playable no matter which section priority E is assigned to. There will certainly be stronger and more well rounded characters, but just because they do not meet your standards doesn't mean they are functionally unplayable. Also note that attributes E is not the only way to build a troll adept, nor is it necessary to fulfill the requirements of the concepts we are discussing here.

Try A/B/C/D/E -> Race/ Attributes/ Skills/ Magic/ Resources. 20 Attribute Points, 28/2 Skillspoints, 7 points to be distributed between magic and edge. Spend 10 Karma on Money and you'll have sufficient for decent starting gear. This is a perfectly viable character that lacks nothing and is only behind the assault rifle until he can buy the rating 8 bow, which is the second he walks out of chargen because the thing is cheap and legal.

Magic 6: Attribute Boost Agility 1, Critical Strike Bows, Improved Ability Archery 3, Improved Reflexes 2, Combat Sense 1, Improved Attribute Agility 1

Archery (Bows) 6 (9) +2 + Agility 6 (7) = 18 Dice. Attribute boost gives 2 extra dice on average, so 20 Dice.

Rating 8 Bow with a smartlink, 17 dice with limit of 8 and a damage of 11P/-2. The only downside is you spend a simple action to ready another arrow. On the upside, you get to pump your enemies full of sweet little toxins like Narcoject for free.

And without investing anything other than 7 skillpoints, you get Blades (Knife) 6 +2 + Agility 6 (7) = 15 (17 attribute boost) with accuracy 7 and 11P/-2 Sword for melee.

This is a simple character that doesn't do anything special other than build on its strength's. (Yeah, sorry,) You can do the same (losing one agility die) with a dwarf or an ork, trading more edge for a few attribute points.[/spoiler]

You continue to claim that non-gun weapons are inherently weaker, but so far you have not supplied one shred of evidence to this claim except for "reasons". I have given you numerous examples of how a player can capitalize on his strength, how crossbows don't need strength, how a strength 8 character, which is reasonably easy to reach is sufficient to make all non strength weapons equal to assault rifles and how higher strength characters can take their melee attacks up to assault cannon damage. Yet, you still demand for "non-gun weapons" to be labeled as inherently weaker. because you think they are.

I'll gladly agree to disagree, but I am genuinely curious as to what actually backs up your claim. So far, all you have come up with is that you need, allegedly, inordinate amounts of resources to accomplish equal damage. Given my troll example posted above, I once again, respectfully disagree.
« Last Edit: <02-06-14/1959:16> by Beaumis »


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« Reply #61 on: <02-06-14/2011:07> »
I have supplied ample proof: namely, you require more resources for melee then guns in order to reach a lesser level.

Again, you yourself admit: your sample character can simply do nothing but shoot their bow or stab with their knife.  They will have low dodge and armor compared to other combat characters.  High strength has to come from somewhere.  I'm going to use the AK-97, the most standardized workhorse assault rifle, for the comparison

What you need to deal 10P with a gun: An ArK-97, high agility, high gun skill.  Accuracy 7 w/smartlink
What you need to deal 10P with a bow: A bow, high agility, high bow skill, 8 Strength.  Accuracy 8 w/smartlink
What you need to deal 10P with a katana: A katana, high agility, high blades skill, 7 Strength  Accuracy 7
What you need to deal 10P with a combat axe: An axe, high agility, high blades skill, 5 strength!  ...Accuracy 4

Do you not see how the need for 8/7/5 strength in order to do comparable damage - as a complex action, not a swift, mind you - is going to ensure blades cannot keep up?  Because the guy with the bow is going to have higher initiative/dodge.  Or higher physical soak and more hit boxes.  Or more stun boxes and higher spell defense.  Or simply better at doing things outside of HIT MAN.  And with the variety of things guns do, you pay more to get less.  You'll note I didn't add in there that the AK-97 can strip away 11 dice from an enemy's defense pool, or that it can fire as a standard.  Take your bow example: you can't cast Agility Boost and attack in the same turn, only the guy with the gun can.

And your complaint for realism is unfounded.  If you can handle all the things I mentioned, but you cannot handle "swords aren't terrible," then the problem is not with the game.  "Swords are good" is not stripping away or "abandoning all realism."  That's your personal taste.


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« Reply #62 on: <02-06-14/2015:35> »
Let me put a nail in this coffin.  Here are a list of things that are realistic in the future:

A dragon president
A dragon president who killed himself to stop evil space monsters from another dimension
Actual wizards
Mystic kung fu warriors
Enhanced future katanas
Enhanced future trenchcoats
Literally the robocop gun
"Cyborgs" that are in fact just plain Alex Murphy
Wolverine claw augmentations
Internet wizards
The console cowboys of cyberspace
Evil alien-ghost bugs
Really iffy racial stereotypes
Megacorps that took over government rather then just buy it
Imperial Japan taking over the world with it's elite samurai warriors and totally never going to fail business sense
Literal vampire wizards
Cyber ninjas with enhanced cyberlegs jumps across buildings in order to fight said vampire wizards
Ancient elven conspiracies

Here are a list of things that are not realistic:

Swords and guns are roughly equal options to combat specialists

...Do you not see how this is really silly?


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« Reply #63 on: <02-07-14/0021:38> »
I see how this whole argument is really silly.  We've established the logical reason why guns replaced swords and bows.  We've also seen that there are advantages to bows that are otherwise not specified simply by looking at damage (ability to deliver toxins, natural silence, legality, etc.).  And at some point we have also established that the future of Shadowrun is a weird place (not completely sure what this proves, tbh).  Do we really need to keep bantering back and forth over an issue that neither of you guys is going to agree about?
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« Reply #64 on: <02-07-14/0509:54> »
Apparently so if that's all you've taken from this.

What we've also established is that Shadowrun the game implicitly pushes combat characters who don't use guns as a viable archtype while mechanically falling flat on it.  What we've also established is that there's no logical or "realistic" reason for non-gun options to mechanically always be worse then gun options.

Also all those bow advantages also apply to guns, come on now.  Natural silence?  You're going to go with "well what if they never buy a silencer?"


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« Reply #65 on: <02-07-14/0634:00> »
I have supplied ample proof: namely, you require more resources for melee then guns in order to reach a lesser level.
No, you have repeated the premise. None has ever disputed that there is a resource difference. None. Your claim however was that this difference is too large. You have failed to provide a single proof for that.

In fact, you have just claimed that a character with B in attributes and C in skills, that has invested 4 attribute points in strength and 14 in two combat skills, is unable to "do nothing but shoot their bow or stab with their knife", despite the fact that there are 12 attribute points left for 6 attributes (which means average in everything and exceptional in body) and 16/2 skillpoints left. That character spend three attribute points in strength (Trolls start at 5, he has 8.). That is one point more than the average character spends on strength. One fraggin point. At the most his dodge, which is no longer a skill, is going to be one die less. His armor will be unchanged because armor no longer relies on body and if it did, he is a troll. His body is higher than most (6+ at minimum).

Instead of calmly discussing what exactly makes this particular character so narrow in your opinion, you would rather write up a long list of shadowrun's fantasy elements, that none has ever disputed, in order to prove that their inclusion should automatically mean that realism goes out the window. You are committing a deductive fallacy. One element of unrealism does not dictate that all elements should be unrealistic. You can list elements all day and not escape that fact.

Quite frankly, I agree with Namikaze. This is going nowhere and the tone is deteriorating rapidly. I'm going to consider this a case of agree to disagree. Good day to you.


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« Reply #66 on: <02-07-14/0641:10> »
If "delivering toxins" is your whole reason for using bows, you are aware that crossbows can do that as well and not require a large strength investment.  Even better, the Exotic Skill: Narcoject pistol can do it much easier with a highly concealable weapon, and also requires a very niche weapon skill.

Your argument that any character can be strong in melee or with a bow is just not accurate.  "Putting 50% of your starting resources/magic power" into one attribute doesn't make for a well-rounded character (if that's what you want to play feel free, but pigeon holing into a super niche special skill isn't probably a great idea when Archery affects, what, 4 items in the game and nothing else?)  Yes, the base damage of the arrow is added to the toxin code which is a valid reason to use Archery, but at the same time you'd probably be better off just chucking a grenade or using Full Auto with SnS ammo because your enemy will be dead/knocked out either way and by using a far more versatile skill.

As for melee, the fact is that unless you are naturally doing more than 8P you are better off packing a Shock Glove and calling it a day.  Hyper-focusing on getting a high strength skill to use melee can be pretty counter-productive for non-Trolls.  It's also important to note that the rules for firing a gun in melee aren't too prohibitive so even if your murdertroll closes the distance his opponent can probably still aim and fire.


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« Reply #67 on: <02-07-14/1125:57> »
Points of fact -
  • bows actually mention nothing about their noise, and you are largely going off the chart and guessing.
  • Most compound bows today fire somewhere in the ~85 dB range before you get string silencers and the like. You can look up a dB chart to find out what that means.
  • Silenced guns are defined as threshold 2 (p136) AND -4 to notice the weapon use/find the location of the firer (p432).
  • Silenced gunfire for most guns is in the 110-120 dB range (there are anomalies for this) and requires subsonic ammo.
  • It also does not change the concealability in the current set of rules. It used to in previous editions.

Previous editions did change the concealability. They might have also had subsonic rounds, but my knowledge of previous editions is not good, and I do not have my books in front of me.

The dart pistol mentioned has heavy pistol range, and there is a dart rifle with sporting rifle range. This is in 5e.

My personal thought on the silencer for guns is that it either needs to do threshold modification (+1) OR dice pool removal (-4) and really it should probably be doing just threshold modification. In the current state of affairs, you can end up removing all dice and making it impossible to hear a gun, while you could potentially hear the bow, and that just doesn't seem right :)

I suppose it really depends on how simulationist you want to be. For me, the extra cost for going bow is more of a style statement, and that's fine, but I feel like that logically there should be a reason to use a bow past "legality". Being highly silenced is a good choice. Yes, you have silencers for guns, but they just aren't ever going to match up with a bow. Then it has a niche. It requires investment to be really useful, etc, but it is useful.

These edition changes. they made a big impact on bows and the verisimilitude in the system.


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« Reply #68 on: <02-07-14/1217:35> »
[EDIT: removed mistaken note on dart pistol]

I think whether you're talking about melee or bows, unless you are a troll or hyperfocused strength character you're likely reliant on skill to cause the most injury, whereas if you are using a gun you are likely relying on the weapon to cause most of the damage (unless you're hyperfocused on agility...or skill). As for the rest of the argument...I think that it's strayed too far from Bows, so this might be best put into one of those seasonal "are guns better than everything else" threads.

What do I personally think? I think that bows do not and should not be able to stand on equal footing with assault cannons unless you hyperfocus (and even then I would have qualms about it), the purpose of bows and melee is that you have other utility besides just the DV - although I could see more arguments for melee revolving around its need to get the hurt out so you can stop taking it.
« Last Edit: <02-07-14/1224:02> by Mithlas »


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« Reply #69 on: <02-07-14/1220:43> »
the Exotic Skill: Narcoject pistol can do it much easier with a highly concealable weapon, and also requires a very niche weapon skill.
I looked through all the books I have in 4E, and in SR5, and neither claim that you use Exotic Weapon instead of Pistols (or Rifles for the parashield rifle). No need to invest in an exotic skill there.
In the SR5 BBB, you must have missed the only sentence under the Special Weapons category in the Street Gear section.
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« Reply #70 on: <02-07-14/1226:04> »
It's incredibly stupid that you have to use an Exotic Skill (and actually two different exotic skills if you want the dart pistol and rifle!)  Why they don't fall under Pistols and Longarms is anyone's guess since they function identically to regular guns.  It probably won't matter when Run N Gun is released and gel capsule rounds are reintroduced anyway but for now it's just another in a long line of head scratchers.