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Run and Gun release date?

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tasti man LH

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« Reply #150 on: <03-11-14/2150:07> »
Right. Basically, it's another version of the Pizza problem with deckers.

Hence why I prefer the default version for 5th.
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RHat

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« Reply #151 on: <03-11-14/2223:45> »
If you think about it, under those rules, it's basically a Dick Move to load out on initiative boosters, because you've pretty much set the course of the fight before everyone else gets a chance to act.  For example, the Street Sam with Reaction 6 (12) [WR3, RE 3, wireless active] and Intuition 6 has a minimum initiative of 22, maximum of 42, and an average of 32.  Compare to a Reaction 3, Intuition 3 character, and that street sam could be acting up to 4 times before that character acts once.  That's not a good scenario.
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firebug

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« Reply #152 on: <03-11-14/2230:52> »
I feel like it also need to be spelled out that in that scenario, even with the basic rules, the street sam will still go first, and then after the other character has gone, go again, and then after the other character has gone once more, go again two more times.  That is still a big benefit that is without a doubt worth the investment.  RG4 doesn't even make the street sam stronger--  It just nerfs all the other characters and bores all the other players.
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Angelone

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« Reply #153 on: <03-11-14/2344:31> »
The Combat character, Rigger, Face, and Hacker are bored while the Mage is going around in the astral. The Combat character, Rigger, Face, and Mage are bored when the Hacker is hacking. The Combat character, Mage, Face, and Hacker are bored when the Rigger is using drones for recon. The Combat character, Rigger, Hacker, and Mage are bored when the Face is facing.

Everyone has their own roles, yet they feel they should be able to keep up with a dedicated combat character... for reasons. The Sam/Adept who is built for it should go multiple times before Joe Average who isn't.
« Last Edit: <03-11-14/2347:04> by Angelone »
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tasti man LH

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« Reply #154 on: <03-11-14/2356:54> »
Because combat is far more common then astral recons, big hacking jobs, or drone scouting?
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RHat

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« Reply #155 on: <03-11-14/2359:47> »
The Combat character, Rigger, Face, and Hacker are bored while the Mage is going around in the astral.

Not if you do it right - they can be doing something else while the scouting is going on, and you can intercut.  When the group is in combat, however, this is not the case.

And people aren't talking about "keeping up" with the combat character - under the base rules, the combat character is still way ahead.  Just not horribly so.
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Angelone

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« Reply #156 on: <03-12-14/0827:23> »
Because combat is far more common then astral recons, big hacking jobs, or drone scouting?

Not necessarily, it really depends on play style. In the majority of my experience combat  takes the back seat and is the only one of the those activities that is avoided if possible.

The person without IP boosters is going to sit there not doing anything just as long regardless if the boosted character uses their actions before them or after them. If the boosted player has 4 IPs they are going to get those IPs either way. Unless there aren't enough enemies and they all get wiped out in the first or second pass which seems unfair to the boosted person. To me it's the same as using background count to take away all the mage's magic.
« Last Edit: <03-12-14/0832:41> by Angelone »
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firebug

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« Reply #157 on: <03-12-14/1013:22> »
They also clearly worked in this edition to remove the so called "decker pizza" problem.  That's why they established the strategy of having the decker with the team, moving in and direct-connecting to everything in AR.  It is established that causing that kind of situation where one player does everything while everyone else waits around is a bad thing.  They are clearly trying to avoid those kind of schisms.  Again I agree with Rhat though; when a decker ends up still away from the team in a host or the mage is astral projecting, the players are not forced to wait.  Often it is the best idea (such as if you're having the mage check it there's guards around a site before approaching) but if they have other things they can do, there's nothing stopping them.  Usually astral scouting is done without rolling initiative in my experience, since it doesn't need to be so precise.    With a decker in a host, however, with IC rolling to spot them every chance, you do need to roll initiative.  At this point though, everyone should still be doing something.  Every time the decker loops a camera feed, the team is moving past it and keeping a look out for physical obstacles in their plan.  Again, no one is prevented from doing anything because of the nature of a decker.

In combat though, unless your player is an ass, you can't just keep moving on.  Everyone rolls initiative and you've got to deal with the threats right then.  Combat sort of "overrides" all other objectives, since that's kind of the idea--  The security or whomever is shooting at you with the intention of forcing you to stop what you're doing and either shoot back or retreat.  Everyone isn't able to keep doing whatever, it involves everyone in the group all at once (who's physically present), and so it's reasonable for everyone to get a chance to contribute...  Meanwhile, that combat monster with 30+ initiative is still going to make everyone shit out their teeth by the end of it.  That player is getting to shine, still dominating, and the other players are also able to contribute.  No where near the level of the street sam or phys. adept, of course, but enough to help and enough to feel like they have a reason to be there.

Combat is seriously a lot different from hacking and astral projecting; and I'm certainly not defending those two when they do end up separating play too much.  It's a bad thing to do, no one wants it to happen, and the game's rules have been trying to fix the most common version of it for 5th edition.  It just really, really seems unreasonable to just institute another rule to bring that factor back in another section of the game.

Ugh, I'm getting too worked up about what is, at base, an optional rule.  Sorry.  Use it if you want, I just want to warn people that it could really take the fun out of the game for other players in your average campaign style.
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Angelone

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« Reply #158 on: <03-12-14/1128:45> »
You make good points I don't agree though. I think it's a problem when everyone has to stop what they are doing to participate in combat. My belief is that combat should be handled by dedicated characters which includes drone riggers while the rest of the team continues on with their jobs. I feel RG4 empowers combat characters to do so.
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RHat

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« Reply #159 on: <03-12-14/1529:31> »
Because combat is far more common then astral recons, big hacking jobs, or drone scouting?

Not necessarily, it really depends on play style. In the majority of my experience combat  takes the back seat and is the only one of the those activities that is avoided if possible.

The person without IP boosters is going to sit there not doing anything just as long regardless if the boosted character uses their actions before them or after them. If the boosted player has 4 IPs they are going to get those IPs either way. Unless there aren't enough enemies and they all get wiped out in the first or second pass which seems unfair to the boosted person. To me it's the same as using background count to take away all the mage's magic.

Actually, no - the Speed Sam acts, 1 pass guy acts, Speed Sam takes his other actions, everyone rolls initiative.  There's a bit more engagement with the game that way, and it's a HUGE difference if the 1 pass guy uses his action to pop an initiative booster, like popping Cram or Jazz.
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Redwulfe

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« Reply #160 on: <03-12-14/1659:04> »
I also like RG4. In my games my combat characters are board most of the time as the rest of the group avoids combat like the plague. and when combat does hit many of the non-combat characters spend there first pass with little effect as they scramble for cover and such. When the combat character goes he has a great impact on the combat as he should. allowing him to go first several times in our games means that the combat will be over quicker and the rest of the group can go back to doing what they want to and if the other characters wish to go as fast they can blitz, that's the cost for not having the tech but doesn't deny you the option. To me that's what makes a great optional rule it will fit some play styles but not all of them and that is great in an optional rule. use it if you want but its not the base rules.

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RHat

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« Reply #161 on: <03-12-14/1848:05> »
I also like RG4. In my games my combat characters are board most of the time as the rest of the group avoids combat like the plague. and when combat does hit many of the non-combat characters spend there first pass with little effect as they scramble for cover and such. When the combat character goes he has a great impact on the combat as he should. allowing him to go first several times in our games means that the combat will be over quicker and the rest of the group can go back to doing what they want to and if the other characters wish to go as fast they can blitz, that's the cost for not having the tech but doesn't deny you the option. To me that's what makes a great optional rule it will fit some play styles but not all of them and that is great in an optional rule. use it if you want but its not the base rules.

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So...  What happens in your game when the enemy has initiative boosters, and can thus waste every character without initiative boosters, or every character who doesn't have their boosters active yet before they can so much as grab cover?

I tend to think people figuring this would be a good rule are missing a lot of the consequences.  The way this nerfs Increase Reflexes in both Spell and Preparation form (the latter being a great way to get boosts to people who don't have them) along with the combat drugs is a huge issue.
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tasti man LH

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« Reply #162 on: <03-12-14/1935:29> »
Considering that RG4 states the drawbacks, I think it's less people ignoring the consequences and more people think that the risks are worth it, or that the drawbacks aren't that big of a deal.
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ProfessorCirno

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« Reply #163 on: <03-13-14/0705:08> »
The answer to the Decker Minigame problem is not to silo everyone else.

At that point, are you even playing a game together?  Have Jack come by Monday to do all the decking sections, have Yuna come by Tuesday to do all the combat rolls, Cris come by Wednesday for all the sneaking rolls...

God, how miserable.

Redwulfe

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« Reply #164 on: <03-13-14/0943:31> »
So...  What happens in your game when the enemy has initiative boosters, and can thus waste every character without initiative boosters, or every character who doesn't have their boosters active yet before they can so much as grab cover?

Then they get wasted. Like I said this rule isn't for every game that's what makes it a good optional rule. In my game we play realistic black trenchcoat. The opposition is not balanced to the party, you make too many mistakes and the party is wasted or has to retire due to too much unwanted public attention. It's the way me and my group likes to play. We enjoy the challenge of portraying criminals in a dystopian world. They tend to avoid combat and we see one every four or more game sessions. Typically it's a random thrill gang who are no match for a seasoned shadowrun team and even those fights they avoid due to the possibility of public awareness, someone somewhere has a camera and being caught on tape doesn't fly to well with my group. We like our game deadly and less pink Mohawk. You don't stick out, you avoid getting into a gun fight if possible, you are a criminal, you stick to the shadows. It's the way we play and this rule doesn't really change that, it just make combat more deadly. And if you don't have your boosters on that's what edge is for, you blitz for 5d6.

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