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Run and Gun release date?

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Namikaze

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« Reply #120 on: <03-03-14/1643:29> »
Me too.  I like the fact that the optional rules are labeled clearly (RG1, RG2, etc.) - it'll make things a little easier for bookkeeping.  I did see an issue in one of the texty bits though.

Page 57:
Quote
Instead, many aspects of combat are abstracted, and some of the psychological aspects show up in how a player role players their character rather than in a series of dice rolls.

Hardly a breaking issue or anything, but it's just something I spotted.

Additionally, there's the bit on page 60 about Progressive Recoil, which seems to want to run counter to the Errata.

Page 60:
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PROGRESSIVE RECOIL (P. 175, SR5)
Tracking recoil is important to balance the combat field, especially with some of the optional rules presented in this book. Every bullet fired inflicts a –1 recoil penalty that is compensated for by a weapon’s Recoil Compensation rating, whether from the natural Strength of the character or from accessories or the design of the gun.  The basic rules allow every character to fi re 2 bullets before taking recoil penalties (1 free + STR/2(rounded up)), but after that they really start to add up. The only way to stop this ever-escalating penalty is spend an action not firing that weapon.

This seems to go back to the original writing of Progressive Recoil, which was vague.
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firebug

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« Reply #121 on: <03-03-14/1824:02> »
RG2, RG3, and RG6 I all really like and will probably regularly implement.  RG1 and RG4 though seem pointless...  They just make certain characters better without any real reason.  Especially laughable that RG4 is followed by a number of points that, to me, just say "but using this rule will just screw everything up".

I understand a lot of people weren't a fan of the "called shot to ignore armor" rule in 4th, and RG5 is prettymuch the same...   Makes me wonder a bit.
« Last Edit: <03-03-14/1827:29> by firebug »
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martinchaen

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« Reply #122 on: <03-03-14/1907:59> »
Namikaze
Doesn't that rule match the errata exactly? "An action", unfortunately, includes free actions; I'm presuming that little blurb should read "is spend a simple or complex action not firing that weapon" if they want it to match the errata rules.

RG2, RG3, and RG6 I all really like and will probably regularly implement.  RG1 and RG4 though seem pointless...  They just make certain characters better without any real reason.  Especially laughable that RG4 is followed by a number of points that, to me, just say "but using this rule will just screw everything up".

I understand a lot of people weren't a fan of the "called shot to ignore armor" rule in 4th, and RG5 is prettymuch the same...   Makes me wonder a bit.
People were loath to use called shots to ignore armor? Against an AV10 opponent, you're taking a negative 10 modifier to your dice pool; this was pretty much the only way sniper weapons were viable as one shot one kill weapons, by targeting unaware opponents with a called shot. I only ever used it once or twice in surprise attacks, but when they worked they worked flawlessly, much as I would expect a bullet to the brain or a sharp metal spike through the throat or heart would affect someone in real life.
« Last Edit: <03-03-14/1910:37> by martinchaen »

Namikaze

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« Reply #123 on: <03-03-14/1949:48> »
Namikaze
Doesn't that rule match the errata exactly? "An action", unfortunately, includes free actions; I'm presuming that little blurb should read "is spend a simple or complex action not firing that weapon" if they want it to match the errata rules.

Unfortunately, the text for the blurb in Run & Gun is not clear about whether it is summing up the Core book's wording or the Errata's wording.  And they do have vastly different results.

SR5 Core Book:
Quote
Recoil penalties are cumulative over every Action Phase and Combat Turn unless the character takes, or is forced into, an action other than shooting for an entire Action Phase.

SR5 Errata:
Quote
Recoil penalties are cumulative over every Action Phase and Combat Turn unless the character takes, or is forced into, a Simple or Complex Action other than shooting.

Run & Gun:
Quote
The only way to stop this ever-escalating penalty is spend an action not firing that weapon.

Also, there are a few locations in the preview that reference Initiative Passes.  I assume these should be Action Phases, and it would be incredibly confusing to new players who never touched 4th edition to not know the difference.
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martinchaen

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« Reply #124 on: <03-03-14/2319:09> »
The rule "RG4" should be what was used for Initiative in the core book with what is in the core book at present being relegated down to the Optional Rule.

RG1, RG2 and RG6 are also great, 3 and 5 not so much though. One caveat to RG1 though, recoil needs to shift back to how SR4A dealt with it.
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RHat

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« Reply #125 on: <03-03-14/2340:07> »
I expect a high Initiative to actually be WORTH what you have to put into it, and unless you use something like that RG4, it is nowhere near worth what it costs.

Under the normal rule, there's no real point in enhancing Initiative at all. At least under the other you're actually getting something worthwhile out of the ludicrously high Essence and nuyen cost.

Quite frankly, I think you're completely wrong.  Initiative boosters are very valuable - they're not the kings of the system like they were in SR4, but they're massively important; this is especially true given the ways in which you can "spend" initiative.
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Namikaze

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« Reply #126 on: <03-03-14/2349:19> »
FYI, life becomes a lot better when you start ignoring All4BigGuns.  As martin pointed out, you're not stating your opinion.  You're telling people right off the bat that they're wrong if they disagree.  That kind of combative stance makes you into a bit of a bully, and it's part and parcel of why I choose when I read your posts or not.

For those that want to ignore someone, like this asshat Namikaze  :), just go up to Profile and look at your buddy/ignore lists.
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RHat

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« Reply #127 on: <03-03-14/2350:29> »
Completely untrue. With a mere 5 Reaction and 4 Intuition, you can have all the Initiative you could ever really need under the base rule.

Not at all - for example, what happens when you want to have 2 actions and still use full defense (or simply if you want 3 actions)?  That remains very, very valuable (especially with the errata that basically killed progressive recoil as a meaningful mechanic).
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CanRay

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« Reply #128 on: <03-04-14/0055:14> »
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tasti man LH

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« Reply #129 on: <03-04-14/0245:54> »
Actually RG4 I'm more confused at because it seems to be EXACTLY the same as the regular Initiative rules but just reworded.

Am I missing something?
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RHat

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« Reply #130 on: <03-04-14/0316:35> »
Actually RG4 I'm more confused at because it seems to be EXACTLY the same as the regular Initiative rules but just reworded.

Am I missing something?

Normal Initiative:  You run through Initiative until everyone acts once, subtract 10 from everyone, repeat for everyone north of 0.

RG4: If you have 31 and the next guy has 9, you get to act 3 times before he gets to act once.
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tasti man LH

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« Reply #131 on: <03-04-14/0334:08> »
...ugh. If that's the case, it would certainly help to have worded it a bit better, or have one of those shiny example boxes that the core book was so proud of.

The other thing that I feel needs clarifying is the Movement Penalties table, specifically "Ranged Attack Penalty". I'm not sure if they mean if the penalty is for someone firing on a character that is moving the listed distance, or if the character is shooting while moving that distance.
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firebug

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« Reply #132 on: <03-04-14/0337:30> »
Actually RG4 I'm more confused at because it seems to be EXACTLY the same as the regular Initiative rules but just reworded.

Am I missing something?

Normal Initiative:  You run through Initiative until everyone acts once, subtract 10 from everyone, repeat for everyone north of 0.

RG4: If you have 31 and the next guy has 9, you get to act 3 times before he gets to act once.

Which gives high initiative characters a complete dominance in combat, where having an extra turn over someone was already a big deal.  I personally can't see it being balanced...  But it's there if a GM wants to establish a serious dividing line between "combatants" and "noncombatants" and make it so everyone but the street samurai is very unwilling to enter combat.  I could see it lending to a grittier game, because Phys. Adepts and wired combat monsters would be absolutely brutal while the face and hacker would be at a major disadvantage, even if they knew how to shoot a gun real well.  I myself wouldn't use it though, because I like making combat "accessible" to multiple archetypes.
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Ryo

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« Reply #133 on: <03-04-14/0356:46> »
...ugh. If that's the case, it would certainly help to have worded it a bit better, or have one of those shiny example boxes that the core book was so proud of.

The other thing that I feel needs clarifying is the Movement Penalties table, specifically "Ranged Attack Penalty". I'm not sure if they mean if the penalty is for someone firing on a character that is moving the listed distance, or if the character is shooting while moving that distance.

I'm more confused by the Defense penalty, considering running and sprinting normally give you a defense bonus.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #134 on: <03-04-14/0414:44> »
All considered to have Reaction 4 and Intuition 4 (values used due to being higher than Human average, but not vastly so).
Average is the only thing accounted for, lower number is assuming 3 average and higher is assuming 4 average (different people in my experience count it differently).

Non-Wired: 11 or 12 average Initiative
Non-Wired with Blitz: 23 to 28 Initiative

Wired 1: 15 to 17 Initiative
Wired 2: 19 to 22 Initiative
Wired 3: 23 to 27 Initiative

Wired 1 + Reaction Enhancer 1: 17 to 18
Wired 1 + Reaction Enhancer 2: 18 to 19
Wired 1 + Reaction Enhancer 3: 19 to 20

Wired 2 + Reaction Enhancer 1: 20 to 23
Wired 2 + Reaction Enhancer 2: 21 to 24

Wired 3 + Reaction Enhancer 1: 24 to 28

For Blitz with the Wired individuals:
Wired 1 – Add 9 to lower or 12 to higher
Wired 2 – Add 6 to lower or 8 to higher
Wired 3 – Add 3 to lower or 4 to higher

On the low-end average it takes Wired level 3 to, on average, go before the Non-Wired individual multiple times, and on high-end average it takes Wired level 2 + Reaction Enhancer level 1 to do so. With both, the Wired individual has paid so much in nuyen and Essence that he should be going before the Non-Wired.
« Last Edit: <03-04-14/0520:34> by All4BigGuns »
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