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Run and Gun release date?

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Redwulfe

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« Reply #75 on: <02-24-14/2334:46> »
I never thought it was that uncommon, given that most corporate security that I faced was always in heavy armor. Which in earleir edition was what we had for milspec, and even the picture of corp security guards in first which is what I've been reading a lot of lately shows them in mil spec style armor. Also given quotes like this "The Renraku Arcology has a Red Samurai unit in at least company strength. They're not shy about leaving the arcology to cover other com-pany interests in the Seattle Sprawl, either." from many of the shadowrun books always gave me the impression that when you faced off against a corp you will run into some military grade gear.

just my impression, to each there own though,
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Namikaze

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« Reply #76 on: <02-25-14/0011:00> »
Well, Renraku doesn't own the Arcology anymore.  Hasn't for some time now.  Times change.  Many companies have decided to switch to a HRT method of dealing with runners.  It's cheaper to man the buildings with rent-a-cops that call in the big boys when they see the runners arrive.  Not only does this make sense in the setting, it also rewards teams that favor stealth and manipulation tactics.
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ProfessorCirno

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« Reply #77 on: <02-25-14/0210:51> »
MilSpec is heavily Forbidden and military equipment, so when a cop sees you with it, or a SINner for that matter, the first thing they do is run and while they're running they'll ask for the army to send in the big guns. And if a sniper sets up at half a mile distance and attacks with a Ranger Arms APDS with 4 net hits, even my heavily boosted Human Street Sam would take damage, nevermind that mage with 3 Body. And we haven't even brought in the vehicle guns, with helicopters spray-painting you with Vigilants or tougher stuff.

The problem is, your heavily boosted human street sam actually wouldn't take that much damage.

Lets use your example.  Someone plugs you with four net hits with an APDS Ranger Arms.  18P, -9 AP.  You're a human Sam with 5 Body, let's say.  Now you're pretty cool to be wearing the armor, so you've got some 'ware; aluminium bones and Orthoskin.  That gives you 27 armor, 23 of which is hardened.  Now, that's reduced to 18 armor, 14 of which is hardened, so you're taking some physical damage.  You roll 25 to soak, and you get 7 automatic, for an average of 15 soaked.  That means, if you got plugged in the head by a sniper using the most powerful sniper rifle in the game, miles away, who scored 4 net hits on you, you are slightly injured.

The rank and file run up and their anti-armor specialist fires a literal anti-tank rocket at you.  24P, -4AP.  Your modified armor is 23, with 19 hardened, so hey, still physical damage.  Your average soak comes out to 10+10 automatic, for an average of 20.  Yeah, you're going to take that anti-tank rocket to the face and walk out limping.  Mind you, only you walk out limping, because everything else around you has been destroyed.

They bring out The Troll.  He's a big troll.  He's holding a big assault cannon.  It's the equivalent of a light tank.  17P, -6AP, and let's give them 2 hits.  Average soak of 9, with 9 automatic.  1 damage.  One.  That's what the light tank gun did.  And it's stun damage.  Hell, if it had gotten 1 hit, you wouldn't have even noticed it!

Finally the chopper swings around and unloads it's heavy machine gun.  12P, -8 AP, and after riddling you with bullets they score 5 hits.  Your armor is 18, so guess what, it's stun damage again.  That's right, you just took like 10 heavy machine gun armor piercing rounds to center mass, and rather then going Dancing Murphy, they're just falling flattened to the floor.  But hey, at least it still managed to do some damage!  Yep, 2 stun damage.  That's a lot, right?

Now hold up.

Back up.

You are proposing that, on the rumor that someone is wearing heavy military armor, the corporation will call in literally the army to invade the city and lock it down and put snipers on the roofs and choppers in the sky to try to kill one dude.

And this does not convince - this alone, that the presence of one runner in heavy armor means "call in the army," this doesn't convince you that maybe the armor is a bit much?

Because even if that doesn't, that pretty much average in every way street sam just took on the army.

Sipowitz

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« Reply #78 on: <02-25-14/0316:54> »
So the Ork Tank we gots in our game with armor 35 is going to be awesome when he upgrades from an armored jacket to milspec?  Nifty for him.

I am assuming the bonuses for Social limit is for the more combatty type faces?

I'm looking at my Face and not seeing why I would need even more Social Limit.  Hitting it now means and exceptional roll.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #79 on: <02-25-14/0342:49> »
Lets use your example.  Someone plugs you with four net hits with an APDS Ranger Arms.  18P, -9 AP.  You're a human Sam with 5 Body, let's say.  Now you're pretty cool to be wearing the armor, so you've got some 'ware; aluminium bones and Orthoskin.
My 'example' would be 4 Body, 4 Orthoskin, 4 Bone Density Augmentation, so 8+(4+23).

And you're talking a heavy machine gun. That's not a vehicle gun, however. Vehicle Guns aren't out yet, those would be in Run&Gun.

And this does not convince - this alone, that the presence of one runner in heavy armor means "call in the army," this doesn't convince you that maybe the armor is a bit much?

Because even if that doesn't, that pretty much average in every way street sam just took on the army.
Well frickin' duh. When you walk around with the heaviest military gear there IS, you are SUPPOSED to get the army tossed at you. This isn't stuff you can take with you around the 'plex. This is the equivalent of driving a frickin' tank into the city. And when the police finds out, not by rumor but by frickin' live-reports and confirmation by every GridGuide and news camera they got access to, that there's a military nutjob walking around town, they're going to call in the army. And have their mages manabolt you from a laaaaarge distance.

And if they don't, if someone walking around in bloody military gear in the middle of a city does NOT get the guy gunned down by the army, then THAT picture is the one that is wrong.

By the way, that Vehicle Gun will do far more damage than a mere machine gun. We're talking probably ~17P/-12 when loaded with APDS. If we throw that at 8+4+23, we got 8+4+11 left, physical damage and 6 autohits. 14 damage reduced, easy 5 hits due to the minigun burst, 8P taken. Even with Edge we're talking an average 3P.



If Runners bring Military Hardware into the city, then they should expect Military Hardware in return. It's an Arms Race.
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Csjarrat

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« Reply #80 on: <02-25-14/0536:35> »
to be honest guys, heavy milspec means game over, write new chars please.
if you get to the point where the army is called in, no johnson is gonna touch you with a barge pole if IF you manage to somehow survive.
Leave the milpec stuff for merc campaigns i think. best for everyone that way! :-)
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #81 on: <02-25-14/0614:30> »
Or Barrens war against Bug Spirits and worse. There is a time and a place for it, but it's definitely not something your average runner is dumb enough for.
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ProfessorCirno

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« Reply #82 on: <02-25-14/0937:24> »
If the armor was more then just slightly above assault cannons in availability and significantly cheaper then it, I'd agree.  But as it stands, it's neither of those.  It's about as available as a cyber-arm grenade launcher.  Or rating 4 muscle 'ware.  It's MORE available then a banshee.

The actual mechanics just don't add up to what you're saying.  And frankly neither does the fluff.  Nothing in that section talks about countries devoting their army to hunting you down.  Nothing in the fluff even mentions you becoming any sort of high profile target just by wearing one.  It's overpowered, and you're making stuff up to try to justify how overpowered it is, when the logical response is to simply cut down on how grossly strong it is.

Csjarrat

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« Reply #83 on: <02-25-14/0957:47> »
no, maybe it doesn't state it in the fluff, but if you think about the logical response of the police when they see you carrying a restricted weapon (can i see your ID please?), then their reaction when you're carrying a forbidden weapon (put the gun down and put your hands above your head!!!), what is the next escalation in response to you running around in forbidden military gear? it's the SWAT team at a bare minimum.
I'd highly suspect that someone in the military would want to ask you polite questions about which friend sold you your high-tec military-only contracted suit while you're sat leaking bodily fluids in the police station's medbay  too.
« Last Edit: <02-25-14/0959:51> by Csjarrat »
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Redwulfe

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« Reply #84 on: <02-25-14/1118:54> »
Currently today many police forces have specially trained individuals with military gear to use against threats that are beyond the scope of your run of the mill beat cop. They are called SWAT teams and are used. This is why I believe that in the 2070's when corporations are governments unto themselves, random thrill gangs shoot people on the streets for fun, and there are section of towns that the cops will refuse to go, that it makes perfect since to me that the escalation of threat will get a military grade response. In modern times we see SWAT being used in response to such escalation, we would that change in a more violent future. It doesn't mean the actual army will respond to you but HTR should and would have milspec gear, to use the shadowrun terms, this would include elite security used in corporate facilities. There are many presidents in the books showing the grade and level of response we are talking about, as well as there presence in many locations a runner will go. My suggestion is to not try and solve every run with your guns and stick to the shadows, so I don't really have a problem with seeing milspec armor on corp security in games I play in, I've been seeing it since first edition and we tend to deal with it just fine.

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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #85 on: <02-25-14/1216:03> »
you're making stuff up
I'm not, and there is no excuse to claim I am.
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ProfessorCirno

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« Reply #86 on: <02-25-14/1222:15> »
you're making stuff up
I'm not, and there is no excuse to claim I am.

Could you show me where you got all that from, then?

no, maybe it doesn't state it in the fluff, but if you think about the logical response of the police when they see you carrying a restricted weapon (can i see your ID please?), then their reaction when you're carrying a forbidden weapon (put the gun down and put your hands above your head!!!), what is the next escalation in response to you running around in forbidden military gear?

Probably the same thing as their response to any Forbidden gear.

I'm not suggesting you just wear F armor all the time and run around with no worries.  I'm saying this claim that simply having it leads to the literal army invading the town and putting snipers on the roofs and sending tanks thundering in to kill specifically and only you is a rather gross exaggeration.

Sipowitz

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« Reply #87 on: <02-25-14/1234:05> »
If the armor was more then just slightly above assault cannons in availability and significantly cheaper then it, I'd agree.  But as it stands, it's neither of those.  It's about as available as a cyber-arm grenade launcher.  Or rating 4 muscle 'ware.  It's MORE available then a banshee.

The actual mechanics just don't add up to what you're saying.  And frankly neither does the fluff.  Nothing in that section talks about countries devoting their army to hunting you down.  Nothing in the fluff even mentions you becoming any sort of high profile target just by wearing one.  It's overpowered, and you're making stuff up to try to justify how overpowered it is, when the logical response is to simply cut down on how grossly strong it is.
Yes the availability of MilSpec armor is WTF are they thinking low.

 We are 7 sessions into our campaign and getting the group kitted out in MilSpec armor wouldn't be very hard to do. 

jim1701

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« Reply #88 on: <02-25-14/1309:25> »
However easy it is to get it a player should be circumspect about where they use it assuming they want to avoid run ins with HRT's IMO.

Sipowitz

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« Reply #89 on: <02-25-14/1318:48> »
Of course, but that applies to pretty much everything in SR.