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Gun H(e)aven 3 is here!

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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #15 on: <12-15-13/0557:39> »
That does sound like a problem. The Alpha is 5/11P/-2 as the best AR, on the Sniper Rifle side the EBR is 6/12P/-3 and the most expensive and fragile Sniper Rifle is 8/14P/-5. A 7/14P/-4 AR sounds like a big balance issue. Now if it were a real-expensive Longarm with a weakness, sure.

I also don't get why they introduce Sport Rifles again, after cutting them out and turning the Sport Rifles into Sniper Rifles as far as range is concerned.

I'll still get it later, and take a look, and hope I can pick up a nice longarm toy for Missions. But that AR probably should be errata'd.
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AJCarrington

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« Reply #16 on: <12-15-13/1154:39> »
Am I missing something guys? Admittedly, I've only just downloaded, but if there is an apparent issue with one of the weapons, why wouldn't you just exclude it from your campaign?

Kincaid

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« Reply #17 on: <12-15-13/1307:53> »
Am I missing something guys? Admittedly, I've only just downloaded, but if there is an apparent issue with one of the weapons, why wouldn't you just exclude it from your campaign?

I think the concern generally lies with the effect of the gun on open play--at least, that's really my concern.  For my home campaign, the gun will likely be consigned to the same dustbin as emotitoys.
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CanRay

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« Reply #18 on: <12-15-13/1402:27> »
I'm sorry guys, but I really dislike this book.  Not only are a bunch of the weapons really out of place and strange for Shadowrun, but there are some serious balance issues like the one that has been mentioned already.
Well, sorry to hear that, but everyone's taste is different.

Aside from the single rifle that is overpowered (and I apologize for missing that when I was proofreading), but what were the other issues you had?  What, exactly, did you find "out of place"?
Am I missing something guys? Admittedly, I've only just downloaded, but if there is an apparent issue with one of the weapons, why wouldn't you just exclude it from your campaign?
I think the concern generally lies with the effect of the gun on open play--at least, that's really my concern.  For my home campaign, the gun will likely be consigned to the same dustbin as emotitoys.
Or homerule the damage down severely.  I like the idea of the firearm, aside from the damage value listed being really too high.  If my group finds it, I'll mark it at a bit over a standard assault rifle for damage, lower the accuracy (it is a short barreled carbine), and call it a day.
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #19 on: <12-15-13/1420:30> »
I like the sound of old-fashioned guns, Gun Heaven always was about both the new toys and the old ones combined. So even though those are rather useless from a Runner's perspective, they make perfect sense inside Gun Heaven.

As for the rifle, I really would like these toys in Missions and then its value would become a problem and would require a Missions GM (Bull) Call, otherwise I'd just put it at something like 12P/-3 & lower Accuracy (can't make a full call until I see the total stats) whenever I actually start playing SR5.

CanRay, how many units of fuel does Flame Thrower Suppressive Fire use?
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CanRay

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« Reply #20 on: <12-15-13/1511:59> »
CanRay, how many units of fuel does Flame Thrower Suppressive Fire use?
GH3 p. 3:  "They can be used for Suppressive Fire (p. 179, SR5). They also can be used to attack multiple targets; using a Complex Action means the shooter can attack with a fanning motion, striking up to three targets (as long as they are all within the weapon’s range and each target is within four meters of the others). This uses two units of the flamethrower’s ammo capacity."

Looks like both types of usage uses two units of fuel.  But I'm not the author.

BTW:  Folks might have missed this, but the flamethrower in GH3 uses Light Pistol ranges.  Each flamer uses its own range depending on make, model, and likely the type of fuel used.
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DWC

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« Reply #21 on: <12-15-13/1605:21> »
I like the sound of old-fashioned guns, Gun Heaven always was about both the new toys and the old ones combined. So even though those are rather useless from a Runner's perspective, they make perfect sense inside Gun Heaven.

As for the rifle, I really would like these toys in Missions and then its value would become a problem and would require a Missions GM (Bull) Call, otherwise I'd just put it at something like 12P/-3 & lower Accuracy (can't make a full call until I see the total stats) whenever I actually start playing SR5.

CanRay, how many units of fuel does Flame Thrower Suppressive Fire use?

I'd be fine with the Rain Forest stats, if it had something like an Accuracy of 4, based on the punishing recoil and short barrel.  Then it'd be a wacky niche weapon, rather than being "the right answer".

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #22 on: <12-15-13/1609:46> »
Accuracy 4 is still 7 with Smart Gun and Take Aim / Enhanced Accuracy.
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AJCarrington

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« Reply #23 on: <12-15-13/1718:10> »
I think the concern generally lies with the effect of the gun on open play--at least, that's really my concern.  For my home campaign, the gun will likely be consigned to the same dustbin as emotitoys.
Ahh...that makes sense, knew I was missing something ;) Thanks

CanRay

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« Reply #24 on: <12-15-13/1942:47> »
Accuracy 4 is still 7 with Smart Gun and Take Aim / Enhanced Accuracy.
Very true, but that's true of all Accuracy 4 items.

Even the Krime Boss Home Defense System looks decent with that kind of preparation despite the Accuracy of 3.
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #25 on: <12-15-13/1951:40> »
You'd still lose hits >10% of the time, close to 1/3 of the time with 6 Accuracy, but given its damage it wouldn't be much of a price to pay. Even if with an Alpha you'd score a hit more occasionally, the damage difference would still be massively in favor of the Carbine at 14/-4 vs 11(12)/-2. Sniper Rifles might still be superior if its Accuracy drops that much, but it'd be quite the excellent AR.

Note that I don't know its full stats, if it's an SA-only AR the Alpha would still have its benefits since it can BF.
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BaronBanana

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« Reply #26 on: <12-15-13/2101:15> »
I like the new Gunheaven3, especially since there are so many pictures which adds a little more fluff to the weapons apart from raw stats!

But i have to say sometimes i get the feeling that the balance team/guy does a really bad job. It took me like five minutes of reading all the weapons to figure out that the Ultimax Rain Forest Rifle is totally overpowered in every aspect (not if you compare it to other assault rifles, but when you compare it to sporting/sniper rifles). Furthermore i don't get why the Model2066 is crappier than the Model2054. Improving a shotgun for 12 years and then coming up with a model which is worse in every aspect AND more expensive, that's science! But i guess that's just nitpicking.
So far i am running my campaign without any house-rules or modifications, but i am gonna adjust that rainforest rifle to something like 13P/-3 and/or a price increase.

Overall: more weapons = better! :)

PeterSmith

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« Reply #27 on: <12-15-13/2121:46> »
Furthermore i don't get why the Model2066 is crappier than the Model2054. Improving a shotgun for 12 years and then coming up with a model which is worse in every aspect AND more expensive, that's science! But i guess that's just nitpicking.

The Ford Mustang II is a perfect example of newer is not better.
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BaronBanana

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« Reply #28 on: <12-15-13/2152:12> »
Furthermore i don't get why the Model2066 is crappier than the Model2054. Improving a shotgun for 12 years and then coming up with a model which is worse in every aspect AND more expensive, that's science! But i guess that's just nitpicking.

The Ford Mustang II is a perfect example of newer is not better.

I do get the fluff part of it, i just think its bad design decision. What is the point of including a weapon, if nobody is going to use it, because its more expensive and has worse stats in all categories? They are also from the same brand so there is even less options to differentiate between the two besides stats. One could argue well it doesn't hurt and "you don't have to use it" but if you are talking about opportunity costs it does hurt, because they could have included another weapons instead. As i said its maybe just nitpicking but there is a trend of unbalanced stuff going on when they transitioned to 5th edition. Comparison between "Ares MP LMG" and "Krime Wave" is another example where one weapons is drastically cheaper and does more damage with lower availability, but at least there are some other minor differences which could justify that.

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« Reply #29 on: <12-15-13/2200:30> »
My problem with the Rain Forest is that the description is for a Carbine, and the stats aren't.  Carbines have short barrels, so the accuracy shouldn't be as high as it is, nor should it have the same range as standard assault rifles.  It still uses Assault Rifle ammo, but with a little less power (shorter barrel again), so the damage shouldn't be as high, and the AP shouldn't be higher than any Assault Rifle either.

The best stats that Assault Rifles have in Core is Acc 6, Dam 11p, AP -2...  this Carbine should be weaker than those, not better than all of them.  This is almost on par with the Krime Cannon at 16p and -6 AP.

if I use this weapon, I might just reclassify it as a mini Assault Cannon, drop the Accuracy down to 3 for the short barrel, and double the cost maybe.
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