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Gun Question

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John Schmidt

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« Reply #30 on: (04:22:09/11-19-10) »
As far as alcohol goes...

Back in college I worked as a bouncer at a bar our saying was, "Instant stupid, just add alcohol."  ;D

The best thing about working at a bar is it really got it out of my system by age 23 I was pretty much done with them. Now...don't get me wrong...it has been said that I still drink like a fish except I don't do it in bars!

Oh...knives are great but again you are talking about close in work. Tactically, keep your options open, a knife, a pistol, an assault rifle, and a grenade or three not a bad idea if you know that trouble is ahead.
« Last Edit: (04:33:36/11-19-10) by John Schmidt »
It's not the one with your name on it; it's the one addressed "to whom it may concern" you've got to think about.

Kontact

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« Reply #31 on: (02:20:35/11-20-10) »
Actually when it comes to the real world there are civilian models of some assault rifles that have the full auto capability removed which are legal to own with the right license.  SMGs on the other hand are completely illegal to the best of my knowledge.  (In both cases in the US, sadly despite living in Canada I seem to know more about US gun law than Canadian).
Sort of.

Yes, there are all manner of semi-automatic (one trigger pull = one bullet) rifle that are absolutely legal.  No special licenses are needed, since they're just, y'know, an ordinary rifle, media hype aside.  Since the gutters aren't red with blood since the Clintonian assault weapon ban expired, I'm hoping we're able to keep things this way, a few states (California, for instance) notwithstanding.

The issue with civilian versions of things like an HK MP5 or similar isn't always necessarily a legal issue.  The primary issue of legality involved is dealing with specific laws governing "short barreled rifles," or SBRs.  If it's a shoulder fired weapon with a rifled barrel (and even pistol barrels are rifled, nowadays), and the barrel is less than 16" long, it's an SBR.  SBR's are classified as a Title II weapon.  Title II weapons are short barreled rifles, short barreled shotguns (in this instance the cutoff is 18"), silencers, and machineguns, which are "weapons that shoot, are designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot without manual reloading by a single function of the trigger." 

None of these are innately illegal, but it's expensive to be allowed to own one (expensive to an everyday citizen with an everyday job, at least).  A special license and -- if this tells you where their real concern lies -- a $200 tax stamp per weapon is required.

Not many guys have the money to burn just for the "gee, whiz!" factor of owning a short barreled rifle.  You'll still see SWAT teams (and ATF squads, naturally) with 'em, but you just don't bump into 'em at the range very often.  Combined with import fees, combined with HK's elitist attitude towards civilian gun owners (for decades they even sold just their handguns to LEO and military groups) and their high prices already, long story short, submachineguns just aren't very common.


"pistol"

As to the why of the SMG, Medicine Man nailed it.  It's a one-handed weapon.  That's its only real benefit over an AR since 2 dice on a conceal test really isn't that big of a concern when you're already at +4.  But, since it's available for one-handed operation, you can rock an Ingram Supermach in each hand and trade long bursts from left to right.  Fire a long burst with your left hand as a simple action, then fire one with your right hand as your next simple action.  Twice the ammo capacity and twice the Recoil compensation for the price of the ambidexterity quality.  It's a lot cheaper, in nuyen and essence, than getting cybergyros and stuffing as much RC as possible into your gun.
Alternately, you can do something like take a stun baton in one hand and a melee hardened SMG in the other, then, if you have to deal with some people up in your business, you can use the two weapon style maneuver, from Arsenal's section on Martial Arts, to parry with the SMG while attacking with the stun baton.  Meanwhile, if you need to still fire at range, you've got your gun in hand.
« Last Edit: (02:29:02/11-20-10) by Kontact »

AJBuwalda

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« Reply #32 on: (09:14:08/11-20-10) »
Actually when it comes to the real world there are civilian models of some assault rifles that have the full auto capability removed which are legal to own with the right license.  SMGs on the other hand are completely illegal to the best of my knowledge.  (In both cases in the US, sadly despite living in Canada I seem to know more about US gun law than Canadian).
Sort of.

Yes, there are all manner of semi-automatic (one trigger pull = one bullet) rifle that are absolutely legal.  No special licenses are needed, since they're just, y'know, an ordinary rifle, media hype aside.  Since the gutters aren't red with blood since the Clintonian assault weapon ban expired, I'm hoping we're able to keep things this way, a few states (California, for instance) notwithstanding.

The issue with civilian versions of things like an HK MP5 or similar isn't always necessarily a legal issue.  The primary issue of legality involved is dealing with specific laws governing "short barreled rifles," or SBRs.  If it's a shoulder fired weapon with a rifled barrel (and even pistol barrels are rifled, nowadays), and the barrel is less than 16" long, it's an SBR.  SBR's are classified as a Title II weapon.  Title II weapons are short barreled rifles, short barreled shotguns (in this instance the cutoff is 18"), silencers, and machineguns, which are "weapons that shoot, are designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot without manual reloading by a single function of the trigger." 

None of these are innately illegal, but it's expensive to be allowed to own one (expensive to an everyday citizen with an everyday job, at least).  A special license and -- if this tells you where their real concern lies -- a $200 tax stamp per weapon is required.

Not many guys have the money to burn just for the "gee, whiz!" factor of owning a short barreled rifle.  You'll still see SWAT teams (and ATF squads, naturally) with 'em, but you just don't bump into 'em at the range very often.  Combined with import fees, combined with HK's elitist attitude towards civilian gun owners (for decades they even sold just their handguns to LEO and military groups) and their high prices already, long story short, submachineguns just aren't very common.


"pistol"

As to the why of the SMG, Medicine Man nailed it.  It's a one-handed weapon.  That's its only real benefit over an AR since 2 dice on a conceal test really isn't that big of a concern when you're already at +4.  But, since it's available for one-handed operation, you can rock an Ingram Supermach in each hand and trade long bursts from left to right.  Fire a long burst with your left hand as a simple action, then fire one with your right hand as your next simple action.  Twice the ammo capacity and twice the Recoil compensation for the price of the ambidexterity quality.  It's a lot cheaper, in nuyen and essence, than getting cybergyros and stuffing as much RC as possible into your gun.
Alternately, you can do something like take a stun baton in one hand and a melee hardened SMG in the other, then, if you have to deal with some people up in your business, you can use the two weapon style maneuver, from Arsenal's section on Martial Arts, to parry with the SMG while attacking with the stun baton.  Meanwhile, if you need to still fire at range, you've got your gun in hand.

I must say that I like the idea of Gun Fu with two SMGs is really appealing. Equilibrium style; if you do not know what I'm talking about: GO SEE THAT MOVIE!
Greetings from the Netherlands, comrade!

The_Gun_Nut

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« Reply #33 on: (10:06:39/11-20-10) »
Fun movie.  Right up until the ending, which was so trite and cliched it instantly made the movie less fun.

If I watch it again, I'll stop right before the final fight.
There is no overkill.

Only "Open fire" and "I need to reload."

AJBuwalda

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« Reply #34 on: (12:46:32/11-20-10) »
Fun movie.  Right up until the ending, which was so trite and cliched it instantly made the movie less fun.

If I watch it again, I'll stop right before the final fight.
Did not bother me because I was still having a adrenaline rush ;D
Greetings from the Netherlands, comrade!

The_Gun_Nut

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« Reply #35 on: (14:34:14/11-20-10) »
Utterly put on the brakes for me.  I was expecting something deeper than a boss fight at the end.
There is no overkill.

Only "Open fire" and "I need to reload."

AJBuwalda

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« Reply #36 on: (19:01:28/11-20-10) »
Utterly put on the brakes for me.  I was expecting something deeper than a boss fight at the end.
It is cool that one can pretty much make Gammaton Cleric. The SR4A does open up a hell of alot great options :)
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KarmaInferno

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« Reply #37 on: (03:22:21/11-21-10) »
Utterly put on the brakes for me.  I was expecting something deeper than a boss fight at the end.
Huh. I totally expected it.

It may have tried to dress itself up with pseudo-philosophical elements, but ultimately it was a movie about a guy kicking ass.



-k

AJBuwalda

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« Reply #38 on: (04:28:45/11-21-10) »
Utterly put on the brakes for me.  I was expecting something deeper than a boss fight at the end.
Huh. I totally expected it.

It may have tried to dress itself up with pseudo-philosophical elements, but ultimately it was a movie about a guy kicking ass.



-k
And it did that well 8)
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The_Gun_Nut

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« Reply #39 on: (09:27:21/11-21-10) »
Yeah, it had a lot of kick ass in it, but it also had a man's discovery that the soul of humanity is more important than mere safety, and removing the former stripped the latter.

I was expecting a fight at the end, but not the cliche one that was given.
There is no overkill.

Only "Open fire" and "I need to reload."

AJBuwalda

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« Reply #40 on: (13:32:20/11-21-10) »
Yeah, it had a lot of kick ass in it, but it also had a man's discovery that the soul of humanity is more important than mere safety, and removing the former stripped the latter.

I was expecting a fight at the end, but not the cliche one that was given.
You should have! Everything in this movie screams cheese, that's whats awesome about it ;D
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The_Gun_Nut

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« Reply #41 on: (09:57:19/11-22-10) »
Oh, it had lots of cheese for the fighting, but it also had the message of not trying to regulate art or morality, that such things ultimately do as much or more evil than what they were trying to control.

And then...boss fight against a guy who was utterly cliched to be big bad, and utterly unbelieveable.  I couldn't take the guy seriously as having either uber combat skills or Zanatos level manipulation abilities.  Especially since he was short sighted enough to fight the best combat monster his academy ever produced.  Why not just seal a room and toss a bunch of grenades in after lighting it on fire and filling it with nerve agents?

Just not smart enough to be the big bad, IMO.
There is no overkill.

Only "Open fire" and "I need to reload."

AJBuwalda

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« Reply #42 on: (13:31:45/11-22-10) »
Oh, it had lots of cheese for the fighting, but it also had the message of not trying to regulate art or morality, that such things ultimately do as much or more evil than what they were trying to control.

And then...boss fight against a guy who was utterly cliched to be big bad, and utterly unbelieveable.  I couldn't take the guy seriously as having either uber combat skills or Zanatos level manipulation abilities.  Especially since he was short sighted enough to fight the best combat monster his academy ever produced.  Why not just seal a room and toss a bunch of grenades in after lighting it on fire and filling it with nerve agents?

Just not smart enough to be the big bad, IMO.
That would have been an awesome ending purely because nobody expects it  8)
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savaze

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« Reply #43 on: (14:58:22/11-22-10) »
SMGs have a lot going for them.  Barrel/overall length is a big issue and their size allows for use in confined spaces like inside vehicles.  SMGs can use Rifle/Pistol rounds or hybrid rounds that can due more damage than rifle rounds (and are proving to be just as accurate and sometimes moreso).  Lower weight allows for more accessories meaning less fatigue from extended use.  SMG builders also experiment with newer ideas (e.g. the equivalent to gyro stabilizing) and built in devices because of lower weight and the higher demand for specialized weapons.  Concealable firepower was the mindset behind the SMG (like the Uzi briefcase http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-NCXwPfpDw or the Magpul FMG9 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pY2EqFzPzn8).  The downside is the range isn't as far as a normal rifle (some SMGs have a greater range than Carbines).  Even though they could be used one handed you wouldn't be able to hit anything because of recoil and fatigue.  Gun Fu is very Hollywood, but isn't anything more than spray and pray or suppression fire.  There is a weapon per hand method, but both weapons are pointing the same way; arm act as the weapons stock (arms locked) and arms crossed at wrists to stabilize.  Of course Shadowrun is different boat and futuristic technology/magic could supercede physics (plus last time I checked Shadowrun used caseless ammunition, so recoil is a non-issue)...

Assault Rifles try to get shorter by adding folding stocks (less accuracy) or shorter barrels (lower muzzel velocity, lower accuracy, less kinetic energy/damage per round due to not burning all the powder in the round), or bullpup configuration (largely unpopular due to generations of "standard configurations" = lack of tactile familiarity, some also argue that bullpup = fragile but that's unproven).

Shotguns are known as the great equalizer in the law enforcement community.  Even if someone's wearing body armor, a 12 gauge deer slug will not only knock them down, but usually it'll knock them out or daze them thoroughly, which gives more than enough time to subdue the individual.  Another thing about shotguns shooting any kind of shot is if you're hit in any extremity, within it's effective range/spread, you're almost guaranteed to lose the limb if you don't die from blood loss or from the invasive nature of the surgery.  Even with medical staff on hand, someone shot in the core body will usually die from internal/external bleeding.  Shotguns are thoroughly limited when it comes to body armor, they just weren't designed to be used against people.  They have been modified nicely to shoot taser rounds, grenades, less-than-lethal rounds, and to become more accurate (deer slugs and rifled barrels).

Every state in the US has different weapon laws.  In AZ, where I live, it's not only legal to own automatic weapons, but it's legal to carry them openly or conceal them.  Sometimes I feel I'm in a Shadowrun game when I see some of the stuff here.  Not to long ago I saw a guy walking down the street carrying a Katana on his hip and a shotgun on his back.

Dahrken

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« Reply #44 on: (15:36:10/11-22-10) »
plus last time I checked Shadowrun used caseless ammunition, so recoil is a non-issue
I fail to seed how caseless ammo would make recoil irrelevant. You still propel a chunk of metal using high-pressure gases that push it forward while pushing the action and gun backward (that action/reaction thing...), the only thing you remove is case extraction, you still need to cycle a blot or something in order to open the chamber and feed the next round.