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Gun Question

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AJBuwalda

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« Reply #45 on: (15:40:58/11-22-10) »
Quote
Every state in the US has different weapon laws.  In AZ, where I live, it's not only legal to own automatic weapons, but it's legal to carry them openly or conceal them.  Sometimes I feel I'm in a Shadowrun game when I see some of the stuff here.  Not to long ago I saw a guy walking down the street carrying a Katana on his hip and a shotgun on his back.
That's freaking crazy. We have very strict laws on firearms. I want to get a licence when I can afford it though. My love for the CZ 75 PS-01 Phantom is just too great.
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Mäx

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« Reply #46 on: (15:57:38/11-22-10) »
(plus last time I checked Shadowrun used caseless ammunition, so recoil is a non-issue)...
Somebody just failed physic forever.
Caseless ammo sure as frak doesn't remove recoil.
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KarmaInferno

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« Reply #47 on: (16:22:25/11-22-10) »
Caseless just saves on the brass, and possibly improves the cyclic rate of autofire since there's no extraction of empty shells needed.

Might eliminate some types of jams too.




-k

AJBuwalda

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« Reply #48 on: (16:31:57/11-22-10) »
Caseless just saves on the brass, and possibly improves the cyclic rate of autofire since there's no extraction of empty shells needed.

Might eliminate some types of jams too.




-k
Might create some new jams, though :D
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Kot

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« Reply #49 on: (16:39:52/11-22-10) »
And those will be tough to remove, i think.
And as for gun law, in Poland it's very strict - no shotguns, or rifles at home, except for hunters (who need to be a part of the organization), getting a handguin license is really tough, and takes ages. So, in the end only criminals and law enforcement agencies have guns. And that's something i'm really okay with, as i'd be dead by now, if guns would be easy to come by. And as it is, i only got my ass kicked, because someone didn't like my face a few times. ;P
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savaze

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« Reply #50 on: (20:22:46/11-22-10) »
plus last time I checked Shadowrun used caseless ammunition, so recoil is a non-issue
I fail to seed how caseless ammo would make recoil irrelevant. You still propel a chunk of metal using high-pressure gases that push it forward while pushing the action and gun backward (that action/reaction thing...), the only thing you remove is case extraction, you still need to cycle a blot or something in order to open the chamber and feed the next round.

The caseless ammo I saw, .45 cal, operated more like a miniature rocket and had virtually no recoil (controlled burn), but I suppose if you look at caseless like the old blackpowder variant (explosion) then yes recoil is still there.

Caseless just saves on the brass, and possibly improves the cyclic rate of autofire since there's no extraction of empty shells needed.

Might eliminate some types of jams too.




-k
Might create some new jams, though :D

Caseless ammo doesn't really jam, they misfire and either have to be manually fired or cycled out (or stacked in the barrel = unpredictable results on accuracy).  The biggest factors for misfire (The case acts like protection against several things):
1) Heat - causes cookoffs, meaning the rounds fire by themselves, hopefully they can be chambered fast enough otherwise catastrophic failure = explosion or shooting yourself (recoil/gases from the round are used for chambering rounds, I've only ever seen something similar to bolt action for caseless).  In cased ammo cookoffs happen from the barrel being to hot or burning the ammo, cooking, hense the name. 
2) Weather/Environment - Water is bad and can make he round not fire properly;
3) Static - can cause cookoffs.
4) Shock/bumps/concuss - The rounds break (propellant breaks off).
« Last Edit: (20:51:25/11-22-10) by savaze »

Kot

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« Reply #51 on: (20:25:10/11-22-10) »
What blackpowder? I think you're thinking about muskets. :P
Mariusz "Kot" Butrykowski
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savaze

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« Reply #52 on: (21:01:58/11-22-10) »
What blackpowder? I think you're thinking about muskets. :P

Balckpowder firearms were considered to use caseless ammo, cased ammo came after the invention of the smokeless gunpowder.

What does everyone think of when they think of caseless ammo?
« Last Edit: (21:04:52/11-22-10) by savaze »

The_Gun_Nut

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« Reply #53 on: (23:19:33/11-22-10) »
There is no overkill.

Only "Open fire" and "I need to reload."

KarmaInferno

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« Reply #54 on: (01:40:32/11-23-10) »
The caseless ammo I saw, .45 cal, operated more like a miniature rocket and had virtually no recoil (controlled burn), but I suppose if you look at caseless like the old blackpowder variant (explosion) then yes recoil is still there.

What you saw if it had a miniature rocket was a Gyrojet firearm. That's something different than "caseless". Gyrojet ammo actually HAS a metal case containing the propellant, technically - the "case" just gets shot out of the gun along with the bullet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrojet

Caseless ammo is just regular ammo, without a case. Instead of being held to the bullet with a brass shell, the propellant is mixed with a binding agent so it can be formed into shapes. They otherwise act like normal bullets, including generating the normal amount of recoil.

Modern caseless ammo in development generally doesn't "cook off" much any more, the propellant has been improved to avoid that. In fact, generally caseless ammo doesn't even use regular gunpowder anymore, many of them use a variant of RDX plastic explosive. Static electricity apparently doesn't do much to the current generation of caseless ammo (the primer needs a very specific amperage and voltage to go off), and if tossed in a very hot fire it'll burn instead of explode. And, it's waterproof.

Additionally, most caseless ammo actually has the bullet INSIDE the shaped propellant, so they really can't come apart just by being jostled or bumped. A small initiator charge pushes the bullet out of the propellant block into the barrel, and then the rest of the propellant ignites to push the bullet out of the gun like normal.

Really, the barrier to caseless ammo isn't the technology. It's the cost of changing an entire system to use something different. Unless you can demonstrate a HUGE benefit over cased ammo, most folks aren't going to spend resources to hange the way they've always done things. And while caseless has some advantages, it's not enough to make that justification.



-k
« Last Edit: (01:57:54/11-23-10) by KarmaInferno »

Mystic

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« Reply #55 on: (05:48:10/11-23-10) »
Speaking as a real-life law dog, I want to give a personal account of why an SMG over an AR.

Savaze touched on it, let me give some real world experience.

First, they are a lot easier to move in a Close Quarters Battle (CQB) situation. Packed in tightly, wearing body armor and having to move with a squad down a hall or through a door is tough. Also, you do want something with some punch and something that can be brought into play quickly, seconds do count.

Second, penetration. Now, Im not talking in the target, Im talking everything else. This may or may not matter to runners, but LEOs tend to worry that if we miss, who else could be hit. Many officers have gotten in major trouble when their round went through a wall and hit little Suzie or grandma next door. This also has application on a run, you may not want your rounds punching through walls and who knows what else.

Right tools for the right job. SMGs are great for up CQB, Assault rifles are great for distances and penetration.
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Kot

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« Reply #56 on: (06:04:47/11-23-10) »
So, basically - SMGs on regular runs, ARs on the tougher ones, in secluded, high-security areas, or merc jobs.
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Mystic

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« Reply #57 on: (06:09:54/11-23-10) »
So, basically - SMGs on regular runs, ARs on the tougher ones, in secluded, high-security areas, or merc jobs.

Depends on the job. If your "regular" run is inside a corp facility, I would go with an SMG. If the job is where you need something with range and accurace, use and AR.
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savaze

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« Reply #58 on: (06:21:01/11-23-10) »
This should help.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caseless_ammunition

I'll admit that I'm not fluent in caseless ammo and I've hit the wikis a few times for updates.

The caseless ammo I saw, .45 cal, operated more like a miniature rocket and had virtually no recoil (controlled burn), but I suppose if you look at caseless like the old blackpowder variant (explosion) then yes recoil is still there.

What you saw if it had a miniature rocket was a Gyrojet firearm. That's something different than "caseless". Gyrojet ammo actually HAS a metal case containing the propellant, technically - the "case" just gets shot out of the gun along with the bullet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrojet

Caseless ammo is just regular ammo, without a case. Instead of being held to the bullet with a brass shell, the propellant is mixed with a binding agent so it can be formed into shapes. They otherwise act like normal bullets, including generating the normal amount of recoil.

Modern caseless ammo in development generally doesn't "cook off" much any more, the propellant has been improved to avoid that. In fact, generally caseless ammo doesn't even use regular gunpowder anymore, many of them use a variant of RDX plastic explosive. Static electricity apparently doesn't do much to the current generation of caseless ammo (the primer needs a very specific amperage and voltage to go off), and if tossed in a very hot fire it'll burn instead of explode. And, it's waterproof.

Additionally, most caseless ammo actually has the bullet INSIDE the shaped propellant, so they really can't come apart just by being jostled or bumped. A small initiator charge pushes the bullet out of the propellant block into the barrel, and then the rest of the propellant ignites to push the bullet out of the gun like normal.

Really, the barrier to caseless ammo isn't the technology. It's the cost of changing an entire system to use something different. Unless you can demonstrate a HUGE benefit over cased ammo, most folks aren't going to spend resources to hange the way they've always done things. And while caseless has some advantages, it's not enough to make that justification.



-k

The demo I saw looked exactly like all the caseless ammo pictures I've seen floating around the web, the bullet was completely encased in the propellant.  Though, there does seem to be several varieties of modern caseless ammo.

The Variety *I saw* propelled differently than Cased ammo.  Whereas Cased has an explosion that's guided down a barrel propelling the bullet, without the barrel and such the case and the bullet fly apart ala shrapnel style.  This variety of Caseless had a controlled burn that didn't consume all the fuel within the length of the barrel, but only shortly thereafter.  It seemed to be a hybrid between Caseless and Gyrojet where the propellant travelled with the bullet, but on the outside of the round, or so it was explained.

I wasn't aware of the changes to propellant and the like.  SR doesn't seem to be using that variety, unfortunately.

I know the US Army has purchased a whole slew of caseless ammo weapons (http://www.vincelewis.net/metalstorm.html), but they are configured a bit different than normal.  The barrel exists purely to hold all the rounds, and reloading consist of changing the barrel out.  They got around all the weak-spots by sealing the barrel/magazine.  The guys I know that fired them say the recoil is less than the normal mounted weapons (M-240, Mk-19, M-2) that have a lot lower rate of fire 300-1200 rpm vs. 1 Million rpm.
« Last Edit: (06:22:44/11-23-10) by savaze »

Mäx

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« Reply #59 on: (06:31:26/11-23-10) »
I know the US Army has purchased a whole slew of caseless ammo weapons (http://www.vincelewis.net/metalstorm.html), but they are configured a bit different than normal.  The barrel exists purely to hold all the rounds, and reloading consist of changing the barrel out.  They got around all the weak-spots by sealing the barrel/magazine.  The guys I know that fired them say the recoil is less than the normal mounted weapons (M-240, Mk-19, M-2) that have a lot lower rate of fire 300-1200 rpm vs. 1 Million rpm.
Metalstorm mounted weapons having lower recoil probably has almost nothing to do with the fact it uses caseless ammo and everythink to do with the fact that, them being big multibarreled beasties, they weight a whole lot more then the conventional mounted weapons.
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