[Michael Chandra]

• Medkit: DP = 6; Limit = 3; Heals minimum amount 31.96% of the time. Max heal of 1 (same).
• Skill rating 0 runner (watches ER Dramas): DP = 5; Limit = 7; Heals minimum amount 20.99% of the time. Max heal of 2 (0.41%) or 3 (only with edge).
• Skill rating 1 Runner (watched the 30 minute first aid vid for a job) : DP = 7; Limit = 7; Heals minimum amount 42.94% of the time. Max heal of 1 (same).
• Skill rating 2 Runner (took a very basic, day long, CPR/First Aid class): DP = 8; Limit = 7; Heals minimum amount 53.18% of the time. Max heal of 2 (25.86%).

Wait, 0.41% at healing 2? How does that work? 5 hits equals 0.41%, but that would heal 3 since you have 3 nethits.

[Alchemyst]

Wait, 0.41% at healing 2? How does that work? 5 hits equals 0.41%, but that would heal 3 since you have 3 nethits.

My mistake, I meant 4.53%. A lot of results to roll and originally I had messed up using a dice pool of 4 not 5. Forgot to change the extra healing values after changing the minimum.

Maybe for normal folks, but a typical runner team will have 1 or 2 R6 Medkits because they're used to lugging around big things (also, an R6 Medkit will actually save you money after 45+ uses compared to an R3 Medkit, so the price difference isn't a big deterrent). What are your numbers if you use an R6 Medkit instead?

Realistically a running group won't have an R6 Medkit with them all the time. When you're already carrying an armory on you, a large briefcase size kit is a pretty hefty thing. Same reason runners don't frolic through town with a bunch of LMGs or Guass Cannons. But anywas assuming your troll doesn't mind being a pack mule and you have R6 what are we coparing it to? I used averages because it's easy. Do you want best kit vs best runner? That's going to be unfair to the device. So I'll use the same increase to match my previous examples so attribute and skill rating are equal to the rating of the kit.

Medkit (rating 6) running auto: DP = 12; Limit = 6; Heal = 1 (81.89%); Max heal = 4 (17.77%)
w/ Skilled Runner (Logic 6, First Aid 6): DP = 18; Limit = 9 (assuming the other mental stats are still average); Heal = 1 (96.74%); Max heal = 6 (22.33%)

The runner already beats the medkit on auto in success chance and damage healed but can even still bump his dice pool further with specializations, skill rating increases, implants, edge, etc as long as their heal max and hit limits (not that he needs to here).

Any runner worth its salt would use a Rating 6 Medkit though, since it lasts quite a while and rolls 12 dice autonomously.

I'd argue against that because it varies situation to situation. Most runners worth their salt aren't going to try bringing along one if the goal is to remain inconspicuous. Especially if they know a good trustworthy mage or two. They are large and awkward to carry. Most runners I've had so far keep one or two in their vehicles or have a dedicated medic carry one if the situation is expected to go south real fast, but for the most part carry rating 3's for emergencies. It's really preference though.

Anyway, since Autonomous Medkits are a thing, I'm assuming they count as Skill Rating in First Aid. Especially since it says "and the device’s rating in place of her First Aid skill" for First Aid without the skill and with a Medkit. Note that in the defaulting scenario, you still take the -1 for defaulting. It sounds to me like the Medkit counts as both an increase in the Limit as well as a Skill Rating increase, which is the only reason why autonomous and defaulting First Aid with Medkits are even an option.

I love this and may house rule it in to see how balance works out.. May make things REALLY CHEESY!

By the way, I agree with giving the dice modifier without the wireless as houserule, but autonomous functioning really should remain a wireless bonus.

The way I see it is it's autonomous function is off of the kit's own autosofts anyways why does it need to access the matrix to do so? I can understand if you want to monitor it's progress on your commlink but otherwise, meh.

Wow Alchemyst, fantastic post mate.  I seriously appreciate you taking the time to explain things out point by point, and even throw in some crunchy numbers to help things make sense.  I would give you some rep or karma if the board allowed it; instead, you get this:

*important snip*

Besides that little disagreement, though, thanks again for the effort you put into your post.  That was exactly what I hoped to get out of the discussion.

-El Carnicero, Resources E Street Samurai. 

To help save the page space I snipped your message, STILL IMPORTANT THOUGH! haha, didn't want you to think otherwise.

I come from depths of the old WoTC forums and it's so hostile over there that I learned that number crunching is both an effective and prompt way of discussion without matching their hostilities haha. I appologize if I ever sound degrading or insulting. I don't mean to be and love friendly and educated discussions. I hope that we have many more to come!

I'm glad your GM has stuck to his guns without upsetting you players, that's always a good sign of a healthy group. I also agree with that reasoning. I never looked at it that way. It's pretty on par with my reasoning that it prevented someone who knew basic first aid from performing at the same level as a world renown doctor no matter the situation. When you get super medics with skill ratings of 13 you still get quite obnoxious levels of healing.

I want a sig for that now!

[Michael Chandra]

A briefcase isn't that bad to carry. You're bound to have one in the trunk, and when you're going to a battlefield, plenty of characters can spare a hand or space in the duffelbag to bring one. Especially when that duffelbag now no longer is holding a sniper rifle. So at hand for instant usage, no, but at least one with the team while they're on the move, most definitely. It just takes a single backpack in an entire team to bring it, while the RCC and Deck can be brought without a hassle already.

As for the Medkit running its own autosoft and not requiring matrix connectivity: I'm not so sure about that. It may very well be that a completely-autonomous healing setup requires more than that medkit can offer by itself, especially since it already requires mechanical devices for automated treatment as well as quite a bit of space for the actual supplies. Not that much space remaining for running a fuzzy logic system that's better than even a drone is at its core duties.

[ZeConster]

Realistically a running group won't have an R6 Medkit with them all the time. When you're already carrying an armory on you, a large briefcase size kit is a pretty hefty thing. Same reason runners don't frolic through town with a bunch of LMGs or Guass Cannons.

I strongly disagree with the "realistically" bit. Considering anyone can bring the "handheld case" with them, even the hacker, drone rigger or spellcaster, it really isn't that much effort to bring one along (and unless they're infiltrating a building or site, they can always just go to the car/van and get it).
Also, the main reason not to "frolic through town" with heavy weapons is they tend to be not only forbidden, but very obvious. A medkit with some paint to make it look like a normal briefcase? Not so much.

But anywas assuming your troll doesn't mind being a pack mule and you have R6 what are we coparing it to? I used averages because it's easy. Do you want best kit vs best runner? That's going to be unfair to the device.

Since your earlier numbers were in response to Top Dog's claim that " low-skilled first aiders have no leg up over nonskilled first aiders for a wireless medkit", the numbers you used there are the ones you should compare the R6 Medkit to, not an expert healer.
Medkit: DP = 12; Limit = 6; heals minimum amount 81.96% of the time. Max heal of 4 (17.77%). Average: 1.97.

[Alchemyst]

I had a response for all the parts of the posts relating to weight, carrying a rating 6 medkit and what not but then realized why bother responding? I already stated it's up to preference on that subject so why in the world do you have the need to argue being correct on yours? Disagree all you want but if a rating 4+ is anything like modern day first-in bags like I carry in my truck (EMT laws in my state require that I do) I wouldn't want to have to lug that thing with me everywhere I go. It's only a small duffle-bag but it weighs roughly 15lbs without my specialty equipment and you have no idea how hindering that is trying to get around in even large apartments. The paramedics on my rig have even heavier packs and they are red faced and huffing by the time they get up a flight or two which is why they prefer that we can get the patient to them.

Again it's purely preference.

Since your earlier numbers were in response to Top Dog's claim that " low-skilled first aiders have no leg up over nonskilled first aiders for a wireless medkit", the numbers you used there are the ones you should compare the R6 Medkit to, not an expert healer.
Medkit: DP = 12; Limit = 6; heals minimum amount 81.96% of the time. Max heal of 4 (17.77%). Average: 1.97.

So you want me to take a top of the line autonomous medical trauma kit and compare it to a below average runner? Why in the world would that be a good comparison?
Also what's the point? Godwyn already explained the stats perfectly already... I honestly see no reason why you are wanting to continue this discussion. Is it to prove top of the line medkits are better autonomously than unskilled runners? Not a single person has argued against that.
But oh well, because it's easy and I'm nice, here you go:

Medkit used alone
•Medkit (rating 6) DP = 12; Limit = 6; Minimum = 1 (81.89%); Max = 4 (17.77%); Glitch chance = (0.13%)

Aforementioned medkit used by Runner with average attributes of 3:
• Skill rating 0: DP = 8; Limit = 10; Minimum = 1 (53.18%); Max = 6 (0.02%);  Medkit max = 4 (1.97%); Glitch chance = (0.46%)
• Skill rating 1: DP = 10; Limit = 10; Minimum = 1 (70.09%); Max = 1 (70.09%); Medkit max = 4 (N/A); Glitch chance = (0.24%)
• Skill rating 2: DP = 11; Limit = 10; Minimum = 1 (76.59%); Max = 2 (52.74%); Medkit max = 4 (N/A); Glitch chance = (0.46%)
• Skill rating 3: DP = 12; Limit = 10; Minimum = 1 (81.89%); Max = 3 (36.85%); Medkit max = 4 (N/A); Glitch chance = (0.13%)
• Skill rating 4: DP = 13; Limit = 10; Minimum = 1 (86.13%); Max = 4 (24.13%); Medkit max = 4 (24.13%); Glitch chance = (0.24%)
• Skill rating 5: DP = 14; Limit = 10; Minimum = 1 (89.47%); Max = 5 (14.95%); Medkit max = 4 (31.02%); Glitch chance = (0.07%)
• Skill rating 6: DP = 15; Limit = 10; Minimum = 1 (92.06%); Max = 6 (8.82%); Medkit max = 4 (38.16%); Glitch chance = (0.13%)
• Skill rating 7: DP = 16; Limit = 10; Minimum = 1 (94.06%); Max = 7 (26.26%); Medkit max = 4 (45.31%); Glitch chance = (0.04%)
• Skill rating 8: DP = 17; Limit = 10; Minimum = 1 (95.58%); Max = 8 (17.19%); Medkit max = 4 (52.23%); Glitch chance = (0.07%)
• Skill rating 9: DP = 18; Limit = 10; Minimum = 1 (96.74%); Max = 9 (10.76%); Medkit max = 4 (58.78%); Glitch chance = (0.02%)
• Skill rating 10: DP = 19; Limit = 10; Minimum = 1 (97.60%); Max = 10 (6.48%); Medkit max = 4 (64.81%); Glitch chance = (0.04%)
• Skill rating 11: DP = 20; Limit = 10; Minimum = 1 (98.24%); Max = 10 (9.19%) or 11 (3.76%)¹; Medkit max = 4 (70.28%); Glitch chance = (0.01%)
• Skill rating 12: DP = 21; Limit = 10; Minimum = 1 (98.72%); Max = 10 (12.48%) or 12 (2.12%)¹; Medkit max = 4 (75.14%); Glitch chance = (0.02%)
• Skill rating 13: DP = 22; Limit = 10; Minimum = 1 (99.07%); Max = 10 (16.31%) or 13 (1.16%)¹; Medkit max = 4 (79.39%); Glitch chance = (<0.01%)
¹: Edge was spent for the purpose of bypassing limit only. Percentages were not affected.

Also I included glitch chance just to show A) how rarely glitches come up and B) how the pool size affects the chances of rolling over half 1s.

As you can see, using average attributes (unfair comparison I might add) once you hit a skill rating of 3 or more there is no benefit (other than 1 less healed at rating 3) to use the medkit autonomously unless you need to direct attention elsewhere. This is also ignoring the use of edge and specializations. Additionally, hitting your maximum is going to be a really rare occurrence even with the limit so I don't really see what all the fuss is about. It doesn't take much to raise your skill a bit if your character is upset they can't out perform a specialized machine.

Note: Again the rules for unskilled characters make things wonky and goes to show the need for Errata. Until then I'd just cap the unskilled heal cap at 1; problem solved.

EDIT:
Formatting errors.

[ZeConster]

Why are you being so hostile about this? You're the one who decided to criticize someone's claim that "low-skilled first aiders have no leg up over nonskilled first aiders for a wireless medkit", while deliberately not taking a 1500¥ R6 Medkit into account in your calculations. And then, when I stated my opinion that a typical runner team will have at least one R6 Medkit, and politely asked you what the numbers worked out to if you used an R6 Medkit instead of an R3 one, you somehow decided to compare it to a highly-trained-in-first-aid runner, which is completely besides the point you were making.

And for future reference, claiming you're "nice" in a post which is just you being obstinate and argumentative makes you look silly. I was polite about disagreeing with you. You weren't.

[Alchemyst]

Why are you being so hostile about this? You're the one who decided to criticize someone's claim that "low-skilled first aiders have no leg up over nonskilled first aiders for a wireless medkit", while deliberately not taking a 1500¥ R6 Medkit into account in your calculations. And then, when I stated my opinion that a typical runner team will have at least one R6 Medkit, and politely asked you what the numbers worked out to if you used an R6 Medkit instead of an R3 one, you somehow decided to compare it to a highly-trained-in-first-aid runner, which is completely besides the point you were making.

And for future reference, claiming you're "nice" in a post which is just you being obstinate and argumentative makes you look silly. I was polite about disagreeing with you. You weren't.

I'm not hostile, you asked me for numbers and I figured that instead of having you respond again in saying I didn't use the ones you liked I'd just make a list of all the skill levels. That's just what I do, if you feel assaulted by it I apologize, that was not my intent.

Also this is an open discussion in a forum discussing rules, am I not supposed to criticize? o.O  I refused to talk about what kits the runners would have on them because it's far from topic and wasn't an important part of the discussion just an observation I made that I even stated was only preference, nothing more. I find that to be very polite.

Edit:
Also, when I did the stats for an R6 vs a like dice-pool runner I explained my reasoning for doing so. Adding an R6 to the percentages for the unskilled ones I listed would really have kept the stats the same. The percentage for the skilled was still higher. Only the wonky "use kit rating in place of skill rating" adds issues for more damage healed than even the medkit alone. I have repeatedly stated that as an issue and never disagreed with that part. So I'll admit I'm a little confused on how my responses were somehow completely against the point of skilled having a leg up.

[Alchemyst]

Anyways, the OP already thanked the responses and his matter was concluded so adding on the fact that you believe me to be hostile I see no reason for us to continue. You have the last word if you'd like it. I'll gladly continue discussing in PMs if you feel the need to.

Farewell on this topic.

[Top Dog]

I'm the one who was being criticized, and I took no offence. I think you had a good point actually; I was also comparing the unskilled versus skilled runner with a rating 6 medkit, and it's fair that a rating 6 medkit is so advanced you'd actually need some more skill to use it effectively. A rating 3 medkit seems more sensible for a beginning medic. And you were right about edge too, although that was more a misinterpretation then anything else (seems I wasn't the only one who thought you ment the limit break).

On the other hand, I do agree that most shadowrunners will bring along a rating 6 medkit (they could keep it in the car most of the time, or on a harness), and I think a game about shadowrunners should take that into consideration, but it makes internal sense that it wouldn't. And it depends a lot on game style, I guess.

The "device rating instead of skill" rules are indeed a bit odd. For one thing, is that instead of the wireless DP bonus? The rules don't say so, but otherwise rolling Int-1+2*device would often be better even for decently trained characters.

At any rate, I hope we can get back to a constructive discussion on the topic. Any good discussion will include people disagreeing with each other, and sometimes strongly so (I can be pretty stubborn and confrontational myself somt... well almost always) but I think it's important to keep it into context - we're all just trying to interpret the rules of a game as best we can, and the rules are complex (and sometimes badly edited) enough for genuine differences of opinion to form.

[Michael Chandra]

I had a response for all the parts of the posts relating to weight, carrying a rating 6 medkit and what not but then realized why bother responding? I already stated it's up to preference on that subject so why in the world do you have the need to argue being correct on yours?

Because you provided arguments against it as well (and did so again in this post). Since this isn't just a debate between us, it also provides people with arguments to keep in mind when playing, so it's important that they actually know arguments for both sides. It's an open discussion, so we're allowed to provide our own arguments.

A shame you decide to step out of the debate because of this, since I'm sure you could have contributed more, but everyone has the right on that. Goodbye.

I have to note, though: Numbers may be unbiased, but they can still be used in a biased manner. By leaving out a situation just because it defies your preference, you're muddling the comparison and have gone past the line of neutral numbers. It's best to keep all numbers in mind, only then is the resulting debate reliable. The same goes for applying a houserule to a RAW debate, this can result in confusion between whether your numbers are RAW or not.


I'll provide a quick comparison later with a few scenarios, to see how well autonomous medkits operate when we assume a trained operative adds the medkit rating to his healing limit.

Edit: Given allegations made towards me, I no longer feel comfortable contributing to this debate and will not write this comparison.

[Alchemyst]

I'm the one who was being criticized, and I took no offence. I think you had a good point actually; I was also comparing the unskilled versus skilled runner with a rating 6 medkit, and it's fair that a rating 6 medkit is so advanced you'd actually need some more skill to use it effectively. A rating 3 medkit seems more sensible for a beginning medic. And you were right about edge too, although that was more a misinterpretation then anything else (seems I wasn't the only one who thought you ment the limit break).

I'm glad you didn't, I meant nothing but information and tried to do so as unbiased as possible, though obviously I have my preferences that slip through in my posts. I am afterall human not AI...see that GOD, not AI! Stop trying to trace me!

On the other hand, I do agree that most shadowrunners will bring along a rating 6 medkit (they could keep it in the car most of the time, or on a harness), and I think a game about shadowrunners should take that into consideration, but it makes internal sense that it wouldn't. And it depends a lot on game style, I guess.

I agree on that point as well. I have always stressed the importance of having gear like that readily available. We all love our suped up super RVs from 4e amiright?

The "device rating instead of skill" rules are indeed a bit odd. For one thing, is that instead of the wireless DP bonus? The rules don't say so, but otherwise rolling Int-1+2*device would often be better even for decently trained characters.

Yeah errata needed stat! Also I'm not sure on that, hmmmm even more odd now! Thanks for bringing that up.

At any rate, I hope we can get back to a constructive discussion on the topic. Any good discussion will include people disagreeing with each other, and sometimes strongly so (I can be pretty stubborn and confrontational myself somt... well almost always) but I think it's important to keep it into context - we're all just trying to interpret the rules of a game as best we can, and the rules are complex (and sometimes badly edited) enough for genuine differences of opinion to form.

Me too, I just have little interest in discussion when someone calls me hostile when I honestly have no clue how. Portraying and reading emotions/intention is really hard through text so I understand where someone might interpret me being perhaps snotty posting all the percentages but I really meant nothing of the sort. I apologize to you as well in case I came off that way.

Because you provided arguments against it as well (and did so again in this post). Since this isn't just a debate between us, it also provides people with arguments to keep in mind when playing, so it's important that they actually know arguments for both sides. It's an open discussion, so we're allowed to provide our own arguments.

I wasn't arguing, I was just stating my reasoning on using 3 as average. I've stated multiple times that it's pure preference. You then posted on why my reasoning is flawed and tried to disprove that. Again I responded with personal preference on why I wouldn't. I'm agreeing to disagree. I won't debate which is right or wrong. I even agreed that a group would definitely have an R6 handy, just not necessarily directly on hand 24/7 that is all.

A shame you decide to step out of the debate because of this, since I'm sure you could have contributed more, but everyone has the right on that. Goodbye.

You were very clear that you believed me being hostile on the subject and that I was being overcritical' the person I criticized of course doesn't share that view which is the only reason I'm actually responding.

I have to note, though: Numbers may be unbiased, but they can still be used in a biased manner. By leaving out a situation just because it defies your preference, you're muddling the comparison and have gone past the line of neutral numbers. It's best to keep all numbers in mind, only then is the resulting debate reliable. The same goes for applying a houserule to a RAW debate, this can result in confusion between whether your numbers are RAW or not.

It's not that it defied my preference. I honestly had no clue what you wanted me to post the R6 against. I thought it fair to keep my same comparison before which was a runner with an exact dicepool. Even with my average runner stats I used that as my base. Honestly, a strictly mathematical average without a sample pool to pick from would be between 0 and 13 so roughly skill rating 6 or 7. I'd go with 6 on that ignoring skill rating 13. I was not refusing to do stats for a rating 6 medkit against a so-called 'average' runner, I simply went with my default comparison scheme of matching dicepools. I apologize if you interpreted it in a biased or hostile way again, it was not my intent.

Also, every time I proposed a houserule to fix issues I clearly stated them as such and made clear they were only ideas not RAW. This has always been and will always be an integral part of discussion about errors in RAW.
Here's RAW. Here's an error I noticed. He's what I do to fix it.
If each part is clearly stated I see no issue.

I'll provide a quick comparison later with a few scenarios, to see how well autonomous medkits operate when we assume a trained operative adds the medkit rating to his healing limit.

The current percentages will stay the same, the max healable amount will increase likewise the percentages of healing max will become closer to 0%. This will also show an even more preposterous unskilled healable max although the percentage of actually healing the new max will be impossible without edge spending.

I'm sorry for responding after saying I was leaving. The forums that I usually have discussions in have made me think it's extremely poor form and disrespectful. However, Top Dog made it clear that he didn't think me hostile or overcritical and I felt he deserved a response but you brought up some points I did not want to ignore (equally insulting to ignore then to post after leaving IMHO). I will be starting a topic on this matter as to not derail the OP's topic any further. Hopefully you can join me there and we can keep it friendly in both views. I understand that you prefer the public discussions to the private and I respect that.

[Alchemyst]

Edit: Given allegations made towards me, I no longer feel comfortable contributing to this debate and will not write this comparison.

There are no allegations, you said I was being hostile and criticizing a post that's all. It's right there. But oh well, do as you must.

[ZeConster]

Edit: Given allegations made towards me, I no longer feel comfortable contributing to this debate and will not write this comparison.

There are no allegations, you said I was being hostile and criticizing a post that's all. It's right there. But oh well, do as you must.

No, I said that, and I did so because you said things like this when I politely pointed out what I believed to be a flaw in your reasoning:

I already stated it's up to preference on that subject so why in the world do you have the need to argue being correct on yours?

Disagree all you want

So you want me to take a top of the line autonomous medical trauma kit and compare it to a below average runner? Why in the world would that be a good comparison?
Also what's the point?

Your choice of words was dismissive, and I interpreted that as hostility.

[Michael Chandra]

Edit: Given allegations made towards me, I no longer feel comfortable contributing to this debate and will not write this comparison.

There are no allegations, you said I was being hostile and criticizing a post that's all. It's right there. But oh well, do as you must.

Given the allegations that I am managing two forum accounts, I feel my personal integrity is being attacked without proper justifications and am completely withdrawing from this debate.

[Alchemyst]

Edit: Given allegations made towards me, I no longer feel comfortable contributing to this debate and will not write this comparison.

There are no allegations, you said I was being hostile and criticizing a post that's all. It's right there. But oh well, do as you must.

No, I said that, and I did so because you said things like this when I politely pointed out what I believed to be a flaw in your reasoning:

I already stated it's up to preference on that subject so why in the world do you havakee the need to argue being correct on yours?

Disagree all you want

So you want me to take a top of the line autonomous medical trauma kit and compare it to a below average runner? Why in the world would that be a good comparison?
Also what's the point?

Your choice of words was dismissive, and I interpreted that as hostility.

My mistake, with so many replies it gets hard remembering who said what.

As for those posts that I said I don't find anything hostile...
I honestly don't understand why preference on average carried pack was such a huge discussion.
"Disagree all you want" is hostile? I had a preference and although you disagreed I wasn't going to change mine. Likewise I wasn't trying to get you to change yours, just to explain mine. How is this an issue?
Dismissive is not hostile. I again, honestly did not understand the point of posting more percentages. The point is exactly the same with higher rating kits, ust more dice to deal with leading to overall higher percentages of success but still the same trend. This was not hostile at all. At least not in intent.