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Vehicle launch weapons

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hobgoblin

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« on: <11-12-10/0225:10> »
One thing i would love to see clarified is vehicle launch weapons.

Right now there is zero info about how hardpoints and vehicle launch weapons interact, if at all.

The military aircrafts only have hardpoints listed if they are already used for machineguns or similar, so they are useless as examples.

Basically, how many outlaws, iron bombs or similar can a boeing-federated eagle carry? 1 pr (non-existent) hardpoint? 10? 1000? And if 1, can one use something to expand that capacity (like say ammo bins)?
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KarmaInferno

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« Reply #1 on: <11-13-10/0009:07> »
Um. Arsenal has all the rules that apply.

Vehicular weapons, gun or launched, can be mounted on either Fixed Mounts or Heavy Turret Mounts. Either way since they are larger than LMGs they also need the Reinforced size.

They are otherwise treated like any other weapon.

Mostly launch weapons get mounted on Fixed Mounts. The Aguilar attack helicopter has for example two fixed mounts on the winglets fitted with rockets, in addition to its chin-mounted MG turret.



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hobgoblin

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« Reply #2 on: <11-13-10/0636:47> »
Problem is that the helicopter uses 2 hail barrage rocket pods, not the launch weapons like outlaw or iron bomb.

As such, it is not a good example for how hardpoints and launch weapons interact. This because the hail barrage is basically a human scale rocket launcher with a bigger ammo capacity (it even uses the same ammo).
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Chaemera

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« Reply #3 on: <11-13-10/1418:09> »
Quote from:  Arsenal, pg. 123, Vehicle Weapons
For details on how to install weapons on vehicles, see the Weapon Mount entry of the Gear and Vehicle Modification chapter (p. 126).

Quote from:  Arsenal, pg. 147, Weapon Mount (Standard)
Size: The size of a weapon mount determines which weapons you can mount into it. A normal weapon mount can hold a firearm of up to LMG size, while a reinforced weapon mount can hold firearms larger than LMG size. As a general rule, one weapon mount can be added to a vehicle for every 3 points of Body it has, rounded up. One reinforced weapon mount counts as two normal weapon mounts. Each weapon mount can also hold up to 250 rounds of ammunition, if the weapon has a beltfeed loading mechanism. Weapons with other loading mechanisms or larger ammunition (rocket launchers, for example) are restricted to their standard amount of ammunition.

So, if it's bigger than an LMG (and a launch weapon is) you need a reinforced mount.

If the weapon isn't belt-fed, or uses particularly large ammo (the launch weapon is the ammo), you are restricted to the normal ammo (Weapon = Ammo = 1).

Therefore, each reinforced mount can hold one, and only one, launch weapon.
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hobgoblin

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« Reply #4 on: <11-15-10/0950:01> »
Making the eagle a joke as a multi-role fighter.
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Chaemera

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« Reply #5 on: <11-15-10/1703:44> »
Reinforced, fixed flexibility, remote control weapon mount = 2 slots. (Arsenal, pg. 145)

Slots available on the Eagle: 20 (slots equal to body or 4, whichever is less) (Arsenal, pg. 115 and 129)

So that's 10 launch weapons on an Eagle if you want nothing else. Not so lousy, when you run the actual numbers.

For reference:
The F-22 carries 8 missiles, that's 2 shy of our Boeing Federated Eagle.
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hobgoblin

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« Reply #6 on: <11-22-10/1519:37> »
The problem is that hardpoints come with a special limitation. There can be only 1 hardpoint pr 3 body.

and reinforced mounts counts as 2.

so that is 20/3=6/2=3 reinforced hardpoints.

arsenal p147, under size.

There is also the issue that some weapons can be carried 3 at a time:
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Hardpoint#Ejector_racks
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Chaemera

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« Reply #7 on: <11-22-10/1710:13> »
The problem is that hardpoints come with a special limitation. There can be only 1 hardpoint pr 3 body.

and reinforced mounts counts as 2.

so that is 20/3=6/2=3 reinforced hardpoints.

arsenal p147, under size.

There is also the issue that some weapons can be carried 3 at a time:
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Hardpoint#Ejector_racks

Quote from:  Arsenal, pg. 147
As a general rule, one weapon mount can be added to a vehicle for every 3 points of Body it has, rounded up. One reinforced weapon mount counts as two normal weapon mounts.
Emphasis mine.

"As a general rule" is a nice way of saying "this isn't really a rule, but we wanted to refer back to the old rules in the core book". Or, "GM's discretion". It's an out, if your GM wants to limit guns on your sports car, he can say it's limited by the aforementioned.

If they wanted it to take 3 Body per weapon mount (6 for reinforced), they would have made it 3 and 6 respectively and detailed each of the other aspects as alternative weapon mounts, rather than modifying the slots required for the other two.

And yes, it is sad that there's no ejector racks in SR4, but such is life. As written, you can have 1 launch weapon per reinforced weapon mount, and one externally visibile, fixed flexibility, remote controlled reinforced weapon mount per 2 body. Unless your GM considers that particular vehicle to fall under the general rule limiting vehicles to 1 per 3 Body (1 per 6 Body for reinforced).

So, ultimately, like most things SR4A, the official rule is that it's the GM's decision.
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Chaemera

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« Reply #8 on: <12-01-10/1723:05> »
There is also the issue that some weapons can be carried 3 at a time:
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Hardpoint#Ejector_racks

Found a simple solution for this, reading through Arsenal.

Quote from:  Arsenal, pg. 131, Ammo Bins (Standard)
Sometimes when you're expecting a lot of opposition, it's good to have lots of ammunition to deal with it. Each ammo bin is attached to a single weapon mount, and each additional ammo bin attached adds another 250 rounds of ammunition, belt feed, or doubles the weapon's normal ammunition capacity in the case of weapons with larger ammunition (such as rocket launchers).

Buy two of those for your external reinforced weapon mount, you can now sport 3 Sparrow Hawks (Anti-air missile) on a single weapon mount.

It's also worth noting that most of the launch weapons are heavy ground attack or anti-shipping. Not really multi-role fighter weapons. That falls more to the missile-launcher and LMG department. The only two I would expect to see on a multi-role fighter are Block 3 or 4 Outlaws and the AIM-27 Sparrow Hawk. The rest belong primarily to bombers, helicopters, or dedicated ground-attack (modern day A-10).
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hobgoblin

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« Reply #9 on: <12-05-10/1545:20> »
I am aware of the ammo bin possibility, tho i would love to see it be an official rule (or suggestion, via the FAQ).
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Mäx

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« Reply #10 on: <12-09-10/0513:31> »
I am aware of the ammo bin possibility, tho i would love to see it be an official rule (or suggestion, via the FAQ).
In what way is it not an official rule allready. ???
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hobgoblin

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« Reply #11 on: <12-09-10/1504:11> »
I am aware of the ammo bin possibility, tho i would love to see it be an official rule (or suggestion, via the FAQ).
In what way is it not an official rule allready. ???
Problem is that launch weapons do not have a ammo capacity. As such neither the belted ammo clause nor the double capacity clause really applies. Launch weapons are self contained weapons, much in the same way as grenades. A simple "ammo bins allows weapon mounts to carry 1 more launch weapon pr bin" would make it perfectly clear.
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Wayfinder

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« Reply #12 on: <12-10-10/0113:15> »
Quote
SR4a, page 320
Mitsubishi Yakusoku MRL: The internal loading mechanism of
the Yakusoku Multi Rocket Launcher allows it to insert up to 4 different
types of missiles (2 each) and choose freely (via the integrated
smartgun connection) which of them to fire with each shooting action.
Its two firing tubes also allow for a quicker rate of fire.

This weapon is mountable to any vehicle in a reinforced mount and can load up to 8 missiles or rockets or as it says mix and match. It also fires at semi-automatic rate.

none of the launch weapons in Arsenal offer that great of an advantage over standard missiles so why not use the MRL? which also can use the ammo bin mod.

 16 missiles per point firing at 2 missiles per IP at 3 hardpoints (as hobgoblin suggested)one run by pilot program, one by rigger, and one by dedicated seconded seater is 6 missiles per IP. Thats 48 missiles firing in 8 IP. I don't really want to think what kind of broken numbers you'd get at 10 weapon mounts.

Chaemera

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« Reply #13 on: <12-10-10/0652:13> »
The point of ten, Wayfinder, is to mix-and-match. Let's face it, if you're talking about a multi-role stealth combat jet, he isn't shooting at just infantry on the ground. Also, you must not be looking too closely at some of the damage codes for launch missiles, I like the 22P of an AIM-27 Sparrow Hawk much better than the 16P of an AV missile.


He'll have some missiles / rockets / guns geared towards anti-infantry, possibly capable of dealing with light armor.
* Block 1 Mitsubishi-GM Outlaws
* LMG's with good AP ammo and tracers
* Mitsubishi Yakusoku MRL loaded with HE or Inferno

Additional hardpoints will be dedicated to AA weapons (better sensor and AP ratings than the anti-infantry gear).
* LMG's / MMG's with APDS or AV rounds... and tracers
* Mitsubishi Yakusoku MRL loaded with SAM AV missiles at high sensor rating
* Saab-Saaker AIM-27 Sparrowhawk with high sensor rating

If he's truly multi-role, then, in addition to those first two, he'll have at least two missiles / bombs that are mid-sensor, high-damage, high-AP or very heavy guns for taking on main battle tanks and other hardened targets.
* HMG's loaded with APDS or AV rounds... and tracers
* Assault Cannons
* Block 3 or 4 Mitsubishi-GM Outlaws

Yeah, you can mix-and-match ammo in a Mitsubishi Yakusoku, but that gives you damage codes in the 14P - 16P range. Since vehicle armor is hardened armor (SR4A, pg. 167, Vehicle Armor) I say "yes please" to any increase in either AP or damage I can get when going up against serious vehicles like fighter craft or MBT's (I know, no official MBT yet, but it's not hard to simulate one with a modded Roadmaster or Conestoga Vista as your starting point). This is where launch weapons come in, the weakest non-torpedo launch weapons match launcher-based missiles in damage. The rest exceed, by 2 - 6 points no less, the damage of launcher-based missiles.
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hobgoblin

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« Reply #14 on: <12-15-10/1711:16> »
while i have not checked the pdf myself yet, it seems that this has not been clarified in War...
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