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AMAZON RELEASE DATES!!! -- IMPORTANT! READ THIS!!!

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All4BigGuns

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« Reply #30 on: <11-10-13/2336:54> »
I'm seriously confused as to why A4BG snapped like that, since Bull's far from the only person in this topic who says Amazon's release dates can't be relied on for more than just Catalyst products. Could someone explain?

I have been harsh with regards to Amazon in the past.  I think they are very bad for business overall, All4 is, obviously, a fan.  (And this is a topic for another thread, so we shouldn't prolong it here, thanks), I think he jumped to the wrong conclusion here thinking I was just bashing on Amazon, rather than responding to the umpteenth hundred post saying "Amazon says it will be out by X!"

But they aren't bad for business, except for perhaps the smallest of local shops. Supporting the FLGS is all well and good, but in today's economy, a lower price is simply better for the average consumer especially when one figures in that they will be getting it delivered to their door hence not have to use that precious liquid gold that is gasoline to acquire it.

For Catalyst, Amazon could be very good for business, as, with their popularity in the online shopping market, working in close cooperation with them could make the company far more money in the long run due to increased volume of sales.
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Reno

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« Reply #31 on: <11-12-13/0339:15> »
I'm seriously confused as to why A4BG snapped like that, since Bull's far from the only person in this topic who says Amazon's release dates can't be relied on for more than just Catalyst products. Could someone explain?

I have been harsh with regards to Amazon in the past.  I think they are very bad for business overall, All4 is, obviously, a fan.  (And this is a topic for another thread, so we shouldn't prolong it here, thanks), I think he jumped to the wrong conclusion here thinking I was just bashing on Amazon, rather than responding to the umpteenth hundred post saying "Amazon says it will be out by X!"

But they aren't bad for business, except for perhaps the smallest of local shops. Supporting the FLGS is all well and good, but in today's economy, a lower price is simply better for the average consumer especially when one figures in that they will be getting it delivered to their door hence not have to use that precious liquid gold that is gasoline to acquire it.

For Catalyst, Amazon could be very good for business, as, with their popularity in the online shopping market, working in close cooperation with them could make the company far more money in the long run due to increased volume of sales.

Yes it is cheaper to purchase on Amazon. It is not necessarily better for the consumer however. If you are like me if FLGS are not in the picture it becomes a case of out of sight out of mind. I wouldn't have even known that shadowrun 5 was out had I not visited my FLGS (which is now an hour away instead of 5 minutes thanks to online retailers). I know that everyone is not like me but I also know that a lot of people like to at least see a product in front of them before they purchase and that simply is not possible with Amazon.
     You say that all but the smallest FLGS can survive with Amazon around but that is false and I can say that from first hand experience. Most of the ones in my area are only kept alive by magic and pokemon tournaments. I like having stores that know who I am and can recommend products based on their knowledge of me as a person not that I might be interested in something else simply because it falls into the category of something I have purchased in the past. My FLGS knows be by name puts things aside that they know I will want and in general makes every shopping experience something pleasant and I am willing to pay a little extra for that. If you cannot see the value of that then continue to buy from Amazon but don't complain when you have no brick and mortar store to go to.

Mirikon

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« Reply #32 on: <11-12-13/0610:16> »
Guns, I hate to break it to you, but online retailers DO harm the brick and mortar stores, and not just the mom-and-pop shops. Netflix killed Blockbuster, hunted it down until there was nothing left. Amazon killed Borders, and has Barnes and Noble on the ropes. These aren't small names we're talking about here.

Reno also brings up a good point. The FLGS is typically the 'point of entry' into different games and genres for new players. Sure, someone who knows they want D&D books can find them easily online. But you can't survive off just marketing to current consumers. Some will leave the hobby due to age, money, lack of group, etc. If you don't replace them (or preferably increase your numbers) with new consumers, then you're dead already, and you don't even know it. And the FLGS is where the majority of new consumers come from. Especially if they, say, go in to see what new Warhammer minis are available, and while they're browsing, they find this book called Shadowrun, like the art, and take a look. Or they go in for the Pathfinder book they ordered, and spot All Flesh Must Be Eaten out of the corner of their eye. That is the entire reason brick and mortar stores put products on display, afterall. People who come in for one thing might stop, see the shiny, and buy that too. It is all interconnected like a spiderweb.

Amazon, however, is much more restricted in this sense. Sure, you can browse through the endless screens of line by line product entries, but a one inch picture of the cover of a book (if that) isn't going to excite you like running your finger along a bookshelf and finding an interesting title. Even when you click on the thing you were looking for, if there are product suggestions, they're all different things in the same product line for the most part. You don't get the cross-pollination you see in the brick and mortar store. And the game industry as a whole suffers for this. Sure, games like D&D, Pathfinder, WoD, and Shadowrun will be fine, for the most part. They're the big dogs in this fight, afterall. But the smaller games, like the Serenity RPG, or ParanoiaXP, or Big Eyes Small Mouth are put at risk, because they just don't have the exposure. And the smallest games go out altogether, never having had a chance. A similar situation exists in news media today. You know how pretty much all news coverage in the US boils down to about 3-4 points of view? That's because the vast majority of newspapers, news radio, and cable news providers are owned by a handful of companies.

"But what about word of mouth online?" you say. "Why can't companies use social media to promote themselves?" Simply put, the signal to noise ratio is too damn high. Anything worthwhile gets drowned out by the hordes of cat .gifs, homophobic rants, porn, and more. Have you TRIED looking through random Twitter or Facebook posts? Either you restrict the flow of information you listen to so that it is an echo chamber, with everyone rubbing one out to how great their hobby is, or you are drowned in a sea of information that makes the Pacific look like a drop in the bucket.
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CanRay

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« Reply #33 on: <11-12-13/1329:10> »
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #34 on: <11-12-13/1335:17> »
Amazon claims the Sheep will be released on 1/4/2014.
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Dal Thrax

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« Reply #35 on: <11-12-13/1536:19> »
Um actually private equity over leveraging the company had a lot to do will the failure if borders and blockbuster.   Blockbuster's habit if dinging people's credit for $3.00 late fees, and billing problems that kept folks from paying the fees before they hit a credit report did not help.
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Crunch

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« Reply #36 on: <11-12-13/1603:21> »
And to be fair Barnes and Nobles brick and mortar stores are making money hand over fist. The Nook division and online sales are tanking so hard that they're dragging down the rest of the company.

But Amazon does eat a lot of market share, and given the small margins FLGS's operate on it can't help. Especially when Amazon is lying about release dates and promising delivery before they're competition based on their own fabricated information.

It must be especially frustrating for developers who then have to deal with frustrated customers who blame the manufacturer for not meeting a release date Amazon fabricated out of whole cloth.

martinchaen

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« Reply #37 on: <11-12-13/1611:13> »
Crunch; do you have evidence of Amazon fabricating such information, or are your comments mere supposition?

Could it be that Amazon inputs whatever the distributors give them, rather than make something up? Which is more likely; Amazon purposefully and maliciously misleading their own customers, or Amazon taking the word of their distributors and publishers?

Food for thought...

Crunch

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« Reply #38 on: <11-12-13/1616:26> »
They're either fabricating or failing completely to police their records.

incrdbil

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« Reply #39 on: <11-12-13/1711:39> »
Crunch; do you have evidence of Amazon fabricating such information, or are your comments mere supposition?

Could it be that Amazon inputs whatever the distributors give them, rather than make something up? Which is more likely; Amazon purposefully and maliciously misleading their own customers, or Amazon taking the word of their distributors and publishers?

Food for thought...

Lets see, this has been going on forever. You don't think amazon itself hasn't gotten constant complaints when dates change? Complaints easily defelcted back on the manufacturer.

What motivation does Amazon have here. they post up a date that looks to good to be true, and make something available for pre-order. Money in the hand is the holy grail.  Deliberate intent to post a made up date is hard to prove, but its real easy to come up with a bad date based off of speculation or an 'unnamed source', place it up there, then say 'hey, its not our fault, the source was wrong. Go blame the author/publisher'.  So, in this scenario, they get pre-orde sales, and deflect the blame easily.  That's certainly more motivation that waiting to post an accurate date (and perhaps miss out on pre-orders).

Ghoulfodder

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« Reply #40 on: <11-12-13/1724:46> »
Crunch; do you have evidence of Amazon fabricating such information, or are your comments mere supposition?

Could it be that Amazon inputs whatever the distributors give them, rather than make something up? Which is more likely; Amazon purposefully and maliciously misleading their own customers, or Amazon taking the word of their distributors and publishers?

Food for thought...
Given that Amazon apparently put release dates on Catalyst products, and someone who works for Catalyst has said Catalyst doesn't share release date information with them and in fact doesn't actually give release dates until the product is in the warehouse and ready to go, I think it's fair to say Amazon are fabricating release dates.

And as an enormous company, if Amazon has a computer system that means they have to put in a release date to list a product they would be more honest either a) fixing their system, b) putting in a false date like 31 December 2999 or b) not listing the product. But as an enormous company they can do what they want and the people it inconveniences will be entirely unnoticed to it.

RHat

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« Reply #41 on: <11-12-13/1821:41> »
Crunch; do you have evidence of Amazon fabricating such information, or are your comments mere supposition?

Could it be that Amazon inputs whatever the distributors give them, rather than make something up? Which is more likely; Amazon purposefully and maliciously misleading their own customers, or Amazon taking the word of their distributors and publishers?

Food for thought...

Given that such information DIDN'T EXIST for the Shadowrun products which prompted this thread, the latter is fundamentally impossible in this case.
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SnackerBob

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« Reply #42 on: <11-12-13/1926:23> »
Crunch; do you have evidence of Amazon fabricating such information, or are your comments mere supposition?

Could it be that Amazon inputs whatever the distributors give them, rather than make something up? Which is more likely; Amazon purposefully and maliciously misleading their own customers, or Amazon taking the word of their distributors and publishers?

Food for thought...
Just quoting to point out the false dichotomy. Especially egregious since one side attributes motives, while  the other side does not. We're all overlooking the part where the third option is Dracula.
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Dinendae

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« Reply #43 on: <11-12-13/2231:35> »

And as an enormous company, if Amazon has a computer system that means they have to put in a release date to list a product they would be more honest either a) fixing their system, b) putting in a false date like 31 December 2999 or b) not listing the product. But as an enormous company they can do what they want and the people it inconveniences will be entirely unnoticed to it.

Or they could just follow Fantasy Flight Game's method, and put either Available Soon or Not Yet Available down to let customers know that it hasn't been released yet. Gamestop has been known to do the same thing; completely make up dates just so that they can list something. To be fair release dates change in video games, but not that much.

martinchaen

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« Reply #44 on: <11-13-13/1827:20> »
While I agree that "Item not yet released" might be a good alternative, Amazon claims to rely entirely upon 3rd party information. I just contacted their custom service department, and got the following:

"Thanks for the time on hold, I checked into this matter, and we found that Amazon's release dates are completly tied to the manufactures date. This is an estimated date, so if by any chance they decide to change it we just update the product page with the new information."

Make of that what you will. Bottom line; don't trust release dates, wherever they may come from.


To the attention of CGL,

Maybe you could follow one of the suggestions above and contact Amazon for your products, and have them set/change release dates to 5 years into the future or some such?
If it's really in your interest to deal with this problem, posting about it on the forums is unlikely to resolve anything as I would wage a minority of players actually come here. Whoever your distributor is may need a swift kick to the shins to get ahead of the curve and deal with this type of issue proactively, to my mind. Considering that Amazon has a way for publishers, which CGL is listed as for the Box Set at least, to amend the information on the product page, it seems like this could easily be addressed.

"If you are a seller for this product and want to change product data, click here (you may have to sign in with your seller id)."
URL for the HERE part above: https://sellercentral.amazon.com/gp/contact-us/contact-amazon-form.html/ref=asin_feedback_box?asin_or_isbn=1936876523&categoryID=20008&typeID=20023
« Last Edit: <11-13-13/1830:32> by martinchaen »