[Mäx]

Double Force 6 = 12S, Drain 2S twice (Same drain as Force 5, might as well)

Its force/2 round down, so that douple force 6 would be 3S twice.
Suprising that you didn't find it wierd that your douple cast has same drain value as single cast when multicasting adds 1 drain per extra spell

[Nomad Zophiel]

OK, round down?
So Force 5 double still = 10S, Drain 2S twice but we're assuming an average of 3 hits against drain anyway, so Drain<=3 is effectively no drain.

Chart o' doom modified again. In this case conclusions remain the same. By the time Max is done with me I'll actually be able to play a 4th Ed Mage effectively.

[Mäx]

I think we fixed all the obvious mistakes at least(meaning i can't find more)

And really i'm not trying to claim that there aren't encouragement for multi- and overcasting in the vanilla rules, just that using that optional rule makes it so that only a total idiot would cast one lower force spell using all possible hits for damage, when you can either multicast a pair of spell and not use the hits or overcast and not use the hits resulting in same damage and less drain to resist(the overcasting drain being P is only a problem if you can't fully resist it most of the time)

[JohnQ]

As a player returning to Shadowrun after a significant lapse in time. This seems like it gives the Magician/Shaman who gives the Spellcasting & Magic stats some attention the commensurate ability to toss multiple spells simulataneouly. Then mixed Magician Cyber-d types the abilities to toss a low level spell and still be able to resist the drain as well. A fully dedicated Magician/Shaman type should be able to toss some serious spells off before he gets a bad headache, where the other types need to be a more careful with the power they play with. 

[Nomad Zophiel]

@John - Looking into it based on Magic 3, spellcasting pool 12 is on my to-do list.

Hell, I'm just glad we're working from the same assumptions.  

Personally, as player or GM, I'm satisfied that a Mage can fire a KO bolt with every IP. The specific method they take to get there doesn't matter to me. The question is whether or not mages can cast an effectively infinite number of those stun bolts without taking Drain.

OK, I beat up some math on multi-overcasting. Then I beat up some other math on the specifics of single force 6 vs high resistance (3 resistance hits). Those both come out much closer than I would have expected. Short form, no Mage can fire off more than a few overcasts, regardless of the rules. Single Casting @6 will take two shots to take down a target with 5-6 WIL. So an optional rule mage can opt to do less damage per shot and keep the drain low enough to shoot infinitely. A non-optional rule mage can roll some damage from the second shot over from Stun to Physical by overloading the damage track but the net result is the same. Two IP to takedown.

So if I understand the crux of the argument, its that there is no reason to take successes when taking a single IP worth of shots against a single, average target. So far, one on one, that checks out and I'm too tired to rerun everything with Manabolt, even though it isn't that complicated.

[Mäx]

OK, I beat up some math on multi-overcasting. Then I beat up some other math on the specifics of single force 6 vs high resistance (3 resistance hits). Those both come out much closer than I would have expected. Short form, no Mage can fire off more than a few overcasts, regardless of the rules.

Overcasting of low drain spells like stunbolt isn't really much of a problem for well build PC mages as they can reduce the drain damage to 0 so it doesn't matter that it would have been physical damage.

And if it takes a combat mage more then one IP to take down an opponent with no counter spelling, then somethink is seriously wrong.

[JohnQ]

*sigh* Perhaps I ought to have taken the StunBolt instead of StunBall. It seems to me that if I am required to have LOS on any Target in order to affect said Target, I should be able then to de-select a Target from the aforementioned Target List. However I suppose that would defeat some of the conventions of spell-tossing and prehaps make the Mage too strong. I can see where that could easily get out of hand. At least now a Mage has to select his Target carefully to avoid taking out his own crew.

[voydangel]

I see what you're saying and I agree on all points except one.

If you (multi)cast 2 spells at force 6 each, it does not do 12S damage. It does 6S x2, each resisted separately by the target thereby giving them a better chance to take less damage. On average, they will reduce the damage taken by double the amount you're assuming they will resist from a single cast. Which brings up the question of "why are we assuming only 1 hit to resist?" A really basic starting character is going to have at least 3 willpower and most likely 3 or more counterspelling dice allocated, which should net at least 2 hits on average - and that's a mundane. If you're target is a mage, you'd be lucky if they have only 9 dice to resist with which will net 3 on average, usually 4 when accounting for real life rolls.

Also, as a side note - you make your Spellcasting + Magic Roll first, deciding how many of those hits to allocate to adding to the DV and how many to set aside for drain resistance. Then, after you've already decided, is when they roll to resist. So if you set back all hits (or all but one) you may actually be doing very little damage with the 2 lower powered spells. So in that case, even though you are taking far less drain, you're also doing far less damage.

I suppose at this point it's just a matter of semantics, since we're looking at a comparison between over casting a spell vs multicasting the same spell at lower force, because as you said, you'd have to be dumb to use the extra hits for damage on a single spell with the optional rule in place, but I really don't agree that said optional rule encourages multi-casting. Overcasting probably, but not multicasting. By multicasting lower force spells all you're doing is giving up damage potential to reduce drain.

[Nomad Zophiel]

And if it takes a combat mage more then one IP to take down an opponent with no counter spelling, then somethink is seriously wrong.

Which is all good to me. The BP/Karma cost of being a good spellcaster makes that fair. Scoring a KO/kill against a less resistant target in one IP is something other experts can do, too.

@voyd - With two hits against an opponent with WIL<=3, your target will get the hits to resist entirely once out of every 15 shots. So 14:15 you're doing Force*2 damage total for much lower drain. (based on adding hits for damage for a Force 6 and not adding them for a double Force 6 with optional rule in play)

[voydangel]

Yea, I suppose that's true statistically speaking. I dunno. I guess my real beef is that Drain is supposed to be the mechanic that balances mages against the rest of the character types. The idea is that the only thing preventing a mage from one-shotting one of two npcs per IP is the risk of drain. So since it seems to be set up so that mages almost never need to worry about drain (via the RAW), then they instantly become the most powerful character in the game from a damage dealing perspective. Now, I know that this optional rule isn't the cause of (or saving grace) of this problem, and I know there's no magic bullet solution to it. It's a game mechanics balance problem.

I guess it all stems from the fact that I actually disagree with the quote:

And if it takes a combat mage more then one IP to take down an opponent with no counter spelling, then somethink is seriously wrong.

I personally would like to see a mage be roughly the same "power level" as other damage dealers in the game. In my opinion a mage should take down a target in roughly the same time as it takes for a guy with a gun to do the same job. I understand that mages are rare and magic is powerful, and it all makes sense from a fluff perspective, but from a game balance perspective it just rubs my fur the wrong way a wee little bit.

So, really in the end, You are right, But I guess what I'm really looking for is some way to either A) make Drain 'do its job' as intended (nerf mages a little so they aren't insanely OP killing machines), or B) reduce the damage dealing effectiveness of direct combat spells. But, that's all about the house rules I guess.

[Nomad Zophiel]

I actually agree on Drain. I'd like to see (for example) minimum Drain after resistance roll=1. The optional, unfortunately, just causes mages to cast smarter, not less, to avoid Drain.

Mages do compare to other damage dealers. Yes, they can take down a heavily armored opponent with relative ease but not so much with a heavy Counterspelled opponent (either a mage or someone protected by one). By comparison a good starting character gunslinger of the adept or sammie variety can take down a lightly armored opponent (Mage) with relative ease and has more trouble against people with inhuman Body/Armor combos. Mages ignore armor, gunners ignore Counterspelling. So the mage and the sammie can take each other out in one IP but generally can't take out a carbon copy of themselves (although they both come close enough to do it in two IP). The gunslinger's net damage drops lower by a bit than the Mage's when comparing physical damage instead of stun (stick'n'shock) but remember that a Mage is probably 100+BP into that mana bolt while the gunslinger is considerably less invested. Cyberwear is cheap relative to bonuses, guns are cheap and smartguns don't even require an implant.

In a game where the proportion of Mages to normies is reflected in the baddies the players face (1%), a Mage becomes extremely powerful. On their own turf, though, they even out with other Mages.

[voydangel]

Yea, that's pretty spot on the mark. I suppose maybe if there were some way to enforce that population/rarity gap in game it might balance it out.
I guess I'm just being whiny because I recently got invited into a new group as a "new" player in an existing game, and the entire group is composed of mages and adepts, who collectively can take just about anything out.
Maybe they should just cost more BP to take the qualities during character creation, that would make them at least a little more rare.....right? 

[Chaemera]

If a GM can't think of a way to make them regret leaving a 4-man astral signature a mile wide, he's not trying very hard.

Let's see. . . cities might have laws regarding "proper" and "licensed" magical use (with your astral sig "on file", thank you) and seriously track down people who are powerbolting without a license.

Magical group dedicated to ensuring their magical supremacy in the area.

Security using a basic watcher spirit to go "oh shit, I see 2 power foci and a sustaining foci at 10 o'clock!" thus calling in the anti-mage goon-squad. (Remember, half the stuff a mage can do. . . shows up through walls from a mile away to an astral watcher.

So, really, Darwin and the GM should have an effective time keeping the population at 1% (or, at least, really low Edge) if it becomes a problem in your game.

[voydangel]

Yea, like I said, I was invited to this other game, so I don't have a lot of say in the matter. I have never had a problem like this in any of the games I've ever run, but seeing it up close and personal is a real eye opener as to just how powerful mages can be when left unchecked. I just couldn't believe it when I heard the words "Yea there are 3 mages and 2 adepts in the party." I was like "uuhhhhh"  And it doesn't help that he just kinda rolls with it... oh well - not my problem I guess.

Although it makes me wonder just how I would handle the issue if it were my game... I still would like to see the rules revised so that drain "did it's job" as it were. Or nerf direct combat spells, or something, I dunno. 

[Nomad Zophiel]

Although it makes me wonder just how I would handle the issue if it were my game...

Sammie with a smoke grenade, thermo vision, ambidexterity and two cherry blossom storms with smartgun and stick'n'shock. As Sun Tzu said, "attack where your enemy is weak and you are strong". Block a Mage's line of sight with something that doesn't block yours.

Also remember that being a Mage/Adept doesn't just cost 10/5 BP. It costs another 40-65 to buy up Magic to 5 or 6 and three Karma a spell. So even the Adepts are spending the equivalent of 450,000 nuyen in gear. Add ten spells for the Mage and 5 BP for being a Mage instead of an adept and you can buy 35BP in positive Qualities with no negatives or some very powerful contacts. Taking Magic up to 6 costs another 25 BP on top of that.

The more I think about it, the more I'd like to see the drain rule be that spells with Drain 0 or 1 are resisted as Drain 1 (ie one hit on drain resistance=no drain taken) but anything higher is resisted as normal and always causes a minimum of 1 Drain. As it is, mages can cast low to mid level spells literally all day, once or twice per IP and never get tired. At minimum Drain take = 1, they can still cast many many spells in the course of a day but they do have to take a breather now and then. It makes their "clip" comparable to most SA guns or to guns using burst.