[Ryo]

Am I the only one bothered by the way Running Silent is worded and explained? From the sound of it, its either too good, and makes hacking impossible to do in a timely fashion, or completely useless, and actually counter-productive.

According to the book, all matrix objects other than marks can be switched to run silent by their owners, and doing so only imposes a -2 dice pool modifier to matrix actions, of which nobody but deckers really ever need to perform. So what stops literally everyone, everywhere, switching all their icons to Run Silent? The decker wants to hack a ganger's gun but can't see its icon, so he rolls Matrix Perception and uses one of his hits to check for silent running icons, seeing 1000+ within a 100 meter radius of him, because literally every wireless device (IE: Everything in existence) is silent. He now has to pick randomly to try and identify what he's looking for, and the chances he's gonna see the gun before the day is over, let alone this combat, are basically zero. Even outside of combat its a pain in the ass, since you have to spend dozens of complex actions spotting every running silent icon in a host or corporate property to get anything done. Hacking has become pointless or too time consuming to bother with, and the decker feels like a moron for blowing a quarter of a million nuyen on a deck he now gets to use as a paperweight.

Alternatively, everybody trusts the wireless matrix and GOD to protect them from hackers, and so nobody is running silent, except for shadowrunners. Now every corp cop or security spider that periodically checks for running silent icons sees only a handful and immediately knows they're up to no good, rolls to spot them, and the jig is up. It only took 1 hit on Matrix Perception to tell you were there, and so Running Silent served to do the exact opposite of what it's supposed to do and immediately revealed you to the people you're trying to hide from, making it pointless.

[Xenon]

... The decker wants to hack a ganger's gun but can't see its icon, so he rolls Matrix Perception and uses one of his hits to check for silent running icons, seeing 1000+ within a 100 meter radius of him, because literally every wireless device (IE: Everything in existence) is silent. He now has to pick randomly to try and identify what he's looking for, and the chances he's gonna see the gun before the day is over, let alone this combat, are basically zero...

One way is to search for all hidden icons within 100m and if you don't have any additional information about the Icon your are looking for other than it is running silent in the vicinity then maybe that is one of the few ways you can do it.... but if you are specifically looking for a rating 2 hidden smartgun device icon located in the PAN of the ganger in front of you the number of hidden devices will probably be very limited.

[acolyte99]

So one would have to change the rules (for example running silent in the way Infiltration vs. Perception is handled; you need more than one hit to see hidden icons and you can only detect the existance and number of hidden icons, that you had enough hits for).
Or you would have a reason, why there should be a mix of some devices running silent (at least a lot more than there are shadowrunners on the host or in 100m radius) and most of them obvious.
Indeed, the only thing that is influenced right now for the legal user is probably Matrix Search, Matrix Perception and Edit File. All other Matrix Actions don't roll dice or are not important to normal people. As far as I understand it, you only need these actions on your commlink (or whatever computer-like thing the wageslave is working at). So John Q. Normal might decide to have more security by running silent with his commlink and would pay the price of having -2 in his editing and searching (what else do we do with our computer; aah - we need a Matrix Action Gaming) or he might not. Somewhat like having a virusscanner that slows the computer or not.
But for his other devices like toaster, gun for self-defense, tres chic glasses, everything electronic in his apartment there doesn't seem to be reason for not running them silent, since they don't need matrix actions.
In game you would really have to assume that the vast majority trusts the system and doesn't run silent the stuff like toasters even though it would have no disadvantages and that there is a small percentage of people who don't trust the system and try to buy some extra security in trade for "speed".

Perhaps you could compare it somewhat with the situation right now about PGP, Truecrypt and encrypting your files and messages in general.
Not everybody who encrypts his data and sends encrypted data per mail and uses Truecrypt to encrypt his data before he puts it in the cloud is a criminal. The vast majority doesn't do it, but those who do it are not automatically criminals. On the other hands most criminals that are not stupid do encrypt.

This comparision fails at the point, that encrypting in our world is always extra effort, while toasters, glasses, fridges etc. could just be running silent out of the box, because it has no disadvantage for such simple devices.

[Ryo]

... The decker wants to hack a ganger's gun but can't see its icon, so he rolls Matrix Perception and uses one of his hits to check for silent running icons, seeing 1000+ within a 100 meter radius of him, because literally every wireless device (IE: Everything in existence) is silent. He now has to pick randomly to try and identify what he's looking for, and the chances he's gonna see the gun before the day is over, let alone this combat, are basically zero...

One way is to search for all hidden icons within 100m and if you don't have any additional information about the Icon your are looking for other than it is running silent in the vicinity then maybe that is one of the few ways you can do it.... but if you are specifically looking for a rating 2 hidden smartgun device icon located in the PAN of the ganger in front of you the number of hidden devices will probably be very limited.

What makes you say that? The Running Silent section of the book says nothing to that affect.

Once you know a silent running icon is in the vicinity, the next step is to actually find it. This is done through an Opposed Computer + Intuition [Data Processing] v. Logic + Sleaze Test. If you get more hits, you perceive the icon as normal; on a tie or more hits by the defender, it stays hidden and out of reach.
Note that if there are multiple silent running icons in the vicinity, you have to pick randomly which one you’re going to look at through the Opposed Test.

[Xenon]

And the sentense before the one you quoted say:
You can do this with a hit from a Matrix Perception Test; asking if there are icons running silent in the vicinity (either in the same host or within 100 meters) can be a piece of information you learn with a hit.

There are obviously other pieces of information you can learn with a hit. Asking for icons running silent in the vicinity is just an example. And that specific question is something I would try to ask if i don't know anything about the icon i am looking for (or if i didn't even suspect that there are any icons running silent in the first place). The more information you know about the icon you are looking for the easier it gets to spot it. If you know enough information to make it a specific icon (maybe the commcode of a commlink) then you will only get one single icon on your spot test (or no icons).

The actual action described on p.241 say this:
If you’re looking for an icon that is running silent (after you’ve determined that it’s present), the test becomes an Opposed Test, with the target defending with Logic + Sleaze. Net hits are used just like you would for spotting distant targets, with the first one for spotting the target and the rest for analysis.



To spot (to actually find) a specific wireless device not running silent 900 m away from you is a Simple Computer + Intuition [Data Processing] Test (with a noise penalty of 1 due to distance).

To spot (to actually find) a specific wireless device running silent 900 m away from you is an Opposed Computer + Intuition [Data Processing] v. Logic + Sleaze Test (with a noise penalty of 1 due to distance).


At least that is how i read the rule (and that is basically how searching information in a database or on the internet works, the more information you have on the subject the easier it is to write the correct SQL statement or ask the correct question). Different people will of course have different interpretation on the matter. Rules in this book are often far from clear



Edit:
All physical devices (that are wireless) also have a matrix icon associated with it. If you know the device in front of you is wireless enabled but you can't see it's matrix icon with your augmented reality heads up display (you know the device is present) then [p.241 tells me that] you need to do an Opposed Computer + Intuition [Data Processing] v. Logic + Sleaze Test to spot it [before you can interact with it]. That is how I see it anyway. And I don't really see any rules that goes against it...?

Edit 2:
If I am attacked from the matrix but I don't automatically spot the icon (which means the attacker is either jacked in more than 100 meters away and/or is running silent) then I would ask for the icon that attacked me (this will be only one specific icon). If it is further away than 100 meters away not running silent then it would be a Simple Computer + Intuition [Data Processing] test but if it is running silent then it would be an Opposed Computer + Intuition [Data Processing] v. Logic + Sleaze Test to spot it.

[Ryo]

Uh, yes, there are other pieces of information you can learn with a hit, such as the other stuff on the matrix perception table. That sentence does not at all refer to the icon running silently specifically. Nothing you quoted, and nowhere in the book can I find something that suggests there is any workaround to the 'pick at random' clause.

If you’re trying to find an icon that’s running silent (or if you’re running silent and someone’s looking for you), the first thing you need to do is have some idea that a hidden icon is out there.

Okay, I need to have some idea that there is a hidden icon. Makes sense.

You can do this with a hit from a Matrix Perception Test; asking if there are icons running silent in the vicinity (either in the same host or within 100 meters) can be a piece of information you learn with a hit.

I CAN find out there are hidden icons from a matrix perception test, BECAUSE asking if there are icons running silently is a piece of information I can learn with a hit. HOWEVER, this implies there are other ways to tell there are hidden icons than asking about them with a hit. For example, I see a gun pointing in my face but can't see its icon. So I know the gun is running silent. Now what?

Once you know a silent running icon is in the vicinity, the next step is to actually find it. This is done through  an Opposed Computer + Intuition [Data Processing] v. Logic + Sleaze Test. If you get more hits, you perceive the icon as normal; on a tie or more hits by the defender, it stays hidden and out of reach.

Alright, cool. I know its there, I try to spot it with an opposed test. But wait, there's more!

Note that if there are multiple silent running icons in the vicinity, you have to pick randomly which one you’re going to look at through the Opposed Test.

And therein lies the rub. Since the gun isn't the only running silent icon in the vicinity, you have to pick randomly what running silent icon you look at through the opposed test. There is no way around this in the text anywhere that I can find. The line that follows has no bearing on it, and the lines that came before these doesn't say anything about it either. This is just the way it is. You cannot tell two running silent icons apart. If you want to spot one,  you have to pick though all running silent icons within 100 meters at random. Those are rules as written.

[Xenon]

And therein lies the rub. Since the gun isn't the only running silent icon in the vicinity, you have to pick randomly what running silent icon you look at through the opposed test. There is no way around this in the text anywhere that I can find. The line that follows has no bearing on it, and the lines that came before these doesn't say anything about it either. This is just the way it is. You cannot tell two running silent icons apart. If you want to spot one,  you have to pick though all running silent icons within 100 meters at random. Those are rules as written.

But i am not interested in all devices that are running silent in the vicinity. I am interested in the specific device in front of me. If i ask for a list of all devices running silent in the vicinity I will get a huge list and have to pick one at random (just like the text implies).

If i ask a more narrow question I get a more narrow selection and I might not even have to pick a device at random.

This test is just to figure out that there is a device present.


if I already know that a device is present (he is after all holding the smartgun just a few inches away from my face) then I don't even have to spend a test to get a list of random devices that are running silent. I am just interested in bricking this specific device and i already know it is present. To brick it I first have to spot it. Normally you automatically spot any device within 100 meters so this device is either wireless OFF or it is running silent. To spot a device that is running silent you take an opposed Computer + Intuition [Data Processing] v. Logic + Sleaze test.

[Ryo]

And if the text said that, it'd be nice, but it doesn't. It says nothing about how wide or narrow your search parameters are when looking, nor does it care what devices you're interested in. All it cares about is how many running silent devices are in the vicinity, which it defines as all of them within 100 meters.

It does not care how you determined there were running silent icons, it just says 'If there are multiple around, you have to pick one at random.'

You may note the order of operations the text followed. First you discover there is a running silent icon. Once you have, you try to spot it with an opposed test, Then it makes a note that you have to pick the target of the opposed test at random if there are multiple running silent icons. It doesn't matter that you have a specific one in mind, there are multiple in the area.

That's among the reasons I dislike how its written. Please, if there is text that supports your claim for how it works, quote it. I can't find it, as that small section is the only one that says anything about Running Silent.

[Xenon]

I don't have any written rules. I am reading the rules as is (and more important what they don't write) and make some educated assumptions from there.

Everything I wrote is based on the assumption that you are free to ask another question instead of "if there are icons running silent in the vicinity". The text does open up the door to ask other questions or even entire other ways than using matrix perception to "get an idea that a hidden icon is out there". It is also clear that you have to pick an icon on random and the text indicate that you have to pick an icon at random from the list of icons you get back from your question. The book use the question "if there are icons running silent in the vicinity" as an example and in that case you also have to pick a random icon that is running silent in the vicinity. If your question is more narrow then you would get a more narrow result and you would have to pick a random icon from from the more narrow result instead.

Making the question too exact might give you a null result. Making the question too general might give you to big result; "Show me all commlinks within 5000 meters".

And remember. All this is still just to "get an idea that a hidden icon is out there".



If a ganger is pointing a wireless smartgun at you but it does not show up on your augmented reality heads up display then you already "have an idea that a hidden icon is out there". You would pit your computer skills and your intuition against the gangers logic to spot that specific icon (by making an opposed test).



Anyhow, i am not saying that this is the rule as written. I am saying that the rule as written is not explicit enough to prohibit this interpretation.


It also make a lot of sense. Shurg.

[acolyte99]

On the table,what you can percept with Matrix Perception on page 235 SR5 we have:

If you know at least one feature of an icon running silent, you can spot the icon (Running Silent, below)

Unfortunately, this sentence is highly interpretable and we don't have examples for (yet).

It could mean:
I know the feature of the icon: it just attacked me, and you can spot the icon, that just attacked you
or
I know more than one feature of the icon: it's a gun (if I have Knowledge Skill: Guns) I might specify which one, and you can spot the icon (I'm not sure if the Matrix knows how far away the gun is from me; if it "knows" , I could even say: one of the features of the icon that I search is, that it is within a meter radius of me (in front of my nose); are physical locations mapped to icons within the one hundred meter range?)

If you say, that these kind of descriptions of what you search are "features" in the sense they are used in this quote, then you can find what you want, even if there are thousands of hidden icons.
If all the world is running silent, a security spider could look for the feature "gun" in 100m vicinity. If there suddenly are more guns than there should be, he could take a look at them. Since there might be several people in the building with a gun license, he will not at once hit the gun of an invading shadowrunner, but after a few tries he might.

But we don't know how tightly defined this "feature" thing can be. If I can just as easy search for "Persona" than it will be to easy to find the invading Decker (depending on the number of people who are working in the building at night when most break-ins happen).

[ve4grm]

Here's the way I'm thinking about it:

- It requires a Logic + Sleaze test to remain hidden from someone looking for you.

- Most devices don't have a Sleaze rating, except decks. And most people only have a 3 Logic. Thus most people won't be running silent. In modern day terms, most people don't have the software or technical knowhow to close the ports on their computer and disguise their IP address with proxies.

- A matrix perception check can alert a security decker to the presence of a silent icon in its host. Just as a motion detector can alert a security rigger to a covert infiltrator in the building. Such a test would likely be performed on occasion.

- Knowing it's there puts the decker on alert, and they now have to try to find the silent icon. Computer + Intuition vs Logic + Sleaze. Same as a basic stealth/infiltration check.

---

Personally, I'd make one adjustment to this formula. When someone declares they're running silently, they roll a Logic + Sleaze test. The difficulty to find them with a Matrix Perception Test is 1 + the hits they get on this Sleaze test.

[shion]

well at this point I'm going to carry on me a bunch of dummy transmitters running silent all claiming they are level 2 smart guns.  I'll just build a microchip little watch that emulates a million of each piece of my equipment... good luck isolating which one is actually my smart gun now... which by the way is the only device which broadcasts watch... because I simply hardwared out the wireless transmitter in my smart gun and replaced it with my watches.  Incidentally for good measure I have 100,000 fake silent watches running too.

[Crunch]

The rules (specifically the rule on detecting icons you know a feature of) don't suggest that that would work.

[Kincaid]

But if a general alarm was tripped and the spider checked to see how many things were running silent in his vicinity, the answer could surprise him.  (I literally wrote this exact tactic as an example 2 hours ago).

It's (probably) also possible to slave your gun and your watch to the decker's cyberdeck and have him run Wrapper to switch the icons, so even if you know a feature of the icon, you're hacking his watch, not his gun.  Yes, Matrix Perception can defeat this, but the decker needs to ask the right question at this point.

As an aside, it would be interesting to develop a hierarchy of Matrix Perception questions.

[FasterN8]

well at this point I'm going to carry on me a bunch of dummy transmitters running silent all claiming they are level 2 smart guns.  I'll just build a microchip little watch that emulates a million of each piece of my equipment... good luck isolating which one is actually my smart gun now... which by the way is the only device which broadcasts watch... because I simply hardwared out the wireless transmitter in my smart gun and replaced it with my watches.  Incidentally for good measure I have 100,000 fake silent watches running too.

That only works until you pull your 9mm Casio on somebody and they decide that they want to see (and brick) THAT device you have in your hand.  No need to search randomly when you can see the device itself.