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SMGs vs MPs (or, is full auto worth it)

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Crunch

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« Reply #15 on: <10-02-13/0943:30> »
The right tool for the right job.
Couldn't agree more.

My personal thought on the matter, however, is that the increased concealability of a machine pistol compared to an SMG can be the tipping point between which one to carry regularly.

If concealability is a concern though Machine Pistols are a fairly marginal choice. There's a narrow (although relatively common for shadowrunners) set of circumstances where the concealability difference between a Machine Pistol and an SMG will be both meaningful and sufficient.

Mirikon

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« Reply #16 on: <10-02-13/1058:26> »
However, Crunch, there are also times when carrying something openly is expected, but something like a SMG or AR would be too attention-getting.

I tend to split things into four basic situations, which also goes hand in hand with the kind of clothes/armor I wear in those situations.

Casual/Off-the-clock: This depends to some degree on lifestyle, but when you're not working, you don't want to call attention to yourself by being geared up for war. In most cases, a lined coat with a pistol/machine pistol/melee weapon would work here. The idea is look protected enough that you don't encourage random violence, but don't go around bringing attention to yourself. No R or F equipment if you can help it (or at least don't make it obvious).

Formal: Not all runners are going to have to blend in at a high society event, but your face (or anyone with a high or higher lifestyle, really) ought to give thought to it. Armored clothes, or (when 5th edition of Arsenal comes out) fancy armored clothes are a must. For weapons, a machine pistol is really the highest you can do here, but light pistols and holdouts would be more common. For those who do melee, a reinforced cane makes for a solid club, and swords (especially those that have been suitably decorated) and other blades can often be worn openly in some cultures, especially by magic types.

Working: When you're on the job (and you go to the meet ready for the job, if at all possible), this is where you go with your typical loadout and armor, whatever it is. Well, unless you consider your typical loadout an assault cannon or machine gun. Leave those in the car most of the time, since that tends to get corpsec and the Knights on your trail faster than G-Men chasing someone who tried to databomb Zurich-Orbital. SMGs and ARs are really the upper limit here, or perhaps a grenade launcher. Try to leave this at R or lower, unless you can conceal it well.

Heavy Drek: Like the name implies, this is when you're planning for all hell to break loose. Anything goes, just get back alive.
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Elektrycerze3

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« Reply #17 on: <10-09-13/0415:40> »
I tend to split things into four basic situations, which also goes hand in hand with the kind of clothes/armor I wear in those situations.

Wow, that's a neat idea. I'll ask my players to do similar write-ups to avoid the "you didn't state you were taking it!" situations. Thanks =)
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #18 on: <10-09-13/0446:45> »
The main places I used FA were with drones (vehicle mounted weapons don't suffer recoil, so why not?) using an LMG.
Since Drones now simply have Recoil Compensation equal to their Body, suppressive fire has become real interesting for them. ^_^
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Mirikon

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« Reply #19 on: <10-09-13/1140:36> »
Glad to help, Elek. Just remember, some people (especially those on lower resources/lifestyles) might not have all of those (or they might be the same thing). I tend to play people at middle or higher lifestyles, so keep that in mind.

And yeah, Michael, that makes it a bit of a problem for my Reaver drones for my rigger. Of course, a bigger problem for my rigger is that she was a technomancer, and now TMs need to submerge before they can act like riggers.
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RHat

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« Reply #20 on: <10-09-13/1210:28> »
Glad to help, Elek. Just remember, some people (especially those on lower resources/lifestyles) might not have all of those (or they might be the same thing). I tend to play people at middle or higher lifestyles, so keep that in mind.

And yeah, Michael, that makes it a bit of a problem for my Reaver drones for my rigger. Of course, a bigger problem for my rigger is that she was a technomancer, and now TMs need to submerge before they can act like riggers.

Yeah...  I'm rolling around some TM houserules I'mplanning to write up and post, and a big part of it is letting them rig, but rig differently.  Needing an echo to get the other benefits of a Control Rig is one thing, but needing it to jump in is just...  Not good.  Part of it, too, is giving Machine Sprites the ability to jump in in their own way (and as far as control primacy goes, it would be considered jumping in) along with an expansion of sprites to add optional powers, sprite Edge (that the technomancer doesn't get access to, as with spirits - one of the main uses would be determining if a sprite becomes free with that Edge (4) test), using technomancer attribute equivalencies to give them proper mental attributes...  Part of the optional powers, and maybe part of the baked in skills would be non-Matrix skills, such as Knowledge/Language skills or Forgery for Data Sprites, Vehicle or most Technical skills for Machine sprites, expansion of non-Cybercombat utility for Fault Sprites (which don't need any help in Cybercombat, but who should be great for other sort of tech mischief), making Courier, Data, and Machine Sprites properly useful, balanced Fading, new Complex Forms to broaden utility (technomancers need to be either more powerful in the Matrix than Deckers or just as versatile outside of it, and I figured I'd give the latter a shot and see what it looks like) with things like Rigging CFs, initiative boosts based on "overclocking your brain", maybe even skill bonuses (providing something similar to, but distinct from, the function of Increase Attribute), widgets as a focus replacement that need some kind of hardware base to hold them together (the specifics varying by stream, and never making any sense in terms of electrical engineering, computer science, and so on), and some kind of attempt to deal with the looming inter-stream balance issue.

It'll be a damn big thing, and finding the right balance is gonna be tricky as all hell - and believe me, I do see precisely how all of that in combination can go too far.
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Agonar

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« Reply #21 on: <10-20-13/0235:55> »
The problem with the LMG's (or any MG) is the double penalty for uncompensated Recoil.  Even with a Gyromount with RC6, 1 for the first round, and Gas Vent III, and a Str of 6.. you have 1 free Phase of FA with no penalty, but then on the next Phase, when you fire again and your bullet total goes from 10 to 20, your penalty for Recoil goes from -0 to -16.  So it's something you do every other Action Phase*.

But other than that, I think FA is worth it, where it is appropriate.  Taking a sufficiently RC'd machine pistol, and losing 3-4 dice on your first FA burst, to give the defender -9 dice.. on average, you are sacrificing 1 Hit, but they are losing 3 Hits, for an overall result of +2 Net Hits (based on 1/3 chance for a hit.  Going strictly by buying Hits at 4:1, then you sacrifice 1 Hit, and they lose 2 Hits for a net result of +1 Net Hit).. in either case, the average result is more damage.

But again, FA is not appropriate everywhere.  Sometimes, BF is better for you, specially if your target has been shot at multiple times this Phase, at -1 Dice per each shot defended again, then -2 more for BF coming their way.

(*) There are currently still two interpretations on the matter. One school claim that Recoil penalties are cumulative over every Action Phase unless the character takes "an action other than shooting" for an entire action phase (not shooting in one simple action and not shooting in the other simple action) - While the other school claim that Recoil penalties are cumulative over every Action Phase unless the character takes an action other than "shooting for an entire action phase" (like shooting in just one simple action and not shooting in the other simple action).

(*) By the wording, I don't see how anyone can reasonably argue that you lose recoil penalties as long as you are not using an action that fires for the duration of a complete Action Phase, since only Suppressive Fire actually says it lasts the entire Phase (actually, end of the Combat Turn even).  And even so, since you can only make one attack per Action Phase, you can't typically fire for both of your simple actions...  unless you are wasting bullets by shooting into the ground or something for the second simple action..  The only logical way I see of reading that (unless you are trying to invent grammatical errors for a munchkin's benefit), is that you must take an Action Phase, either two simple, or one complex action, in which you do not fire that weapon.  Then recoil penalties drop.
« Last Edit: <10-20-13/0240:39> by Agonar »
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Noble Drake

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« Reply #22 on: <10-20-13/0455:25> »
The problem with the LMG's (or any MG) is the double penalty for uncompensated Recoil.
Perhaps the problem is really that people think Full Auto weapons are meant to be accurate for more than a few seconds.

You load up all the recoil comp you can, you pick a target in the first action phase and start the full auto spray... and then you switch to recoil-free suppressive fire for as long as you feel like continuing to hold down the trigger.

...and all of a sudden, full auto is actually the most efficient way of making sure that your enemies take some damage because it is always your full dice pool being rolled and counts as as many attack as idiots there are trying to run through the hail of bullets.

BetaCAV

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« Reply #23 on: <10-20-13/1609:40> »
The problem with the LMG's (or any MG) is the double penalty for uncompensated Recoil.
Perhaps the problem is really that people think Full Auto weapons are meant to be accurate for more than a few seconds.

You load up all the recoil comp you can, you pick a target in the first action phase and start the full auto spray... and then you switch to recoil-free suppressive fire for as long as you feel like continuing to hold down the trigger.

...and all of a sudden, full auto is actually the most efficient way of making sure that your enemies take some damage because it is always your full dice pool being rolled and counts as as many attack as idiots there are trying to run through the hail of bullets.

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Reaver

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« Reply #24 on: <10-24-13/0857:24> »
SMG all the way!! Better range just in case you need it.


Sides, MP are for girls :D
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« Reply #25 on: <10-24-13/1454:01> »
Sides, MP are for girls :D
Well... there's a new addition for the list of things that will get you shot if you say them in front of the wrong character.

DWC

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« Reply #26 on: <10-28-13/2222:08> »
Sides, MP are for girls :D
Well... there's a new addition for the list of things that will get you shot if you say them in front of the wrong character.

As long as you're only getting shot with a machine pistol, who cares? :)

Note:  I am in no way condoning sexism in the selection of firearms.  Some of the nicest women I know prefer a good bolt action rifle, or a big-bore revolver.  Others like chainsaws, or machine pistols.

martinchaen

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« Reply #27 on: <10-28-13/2309:08> »
Clearly, anyone who thinks a machine pistol is "just for girls" (implying that it's weak or something along those lines) has never seen one actually fire...

Look up footage of the Glock 18. Sure, they're wildly inaccurate at anything beyond 50 meters unless you're an expert marksman, but if you have a little skill (or stand close enough to your target) and use burst-limiters they are just as deadly as any other firearm.

DWC

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« Reply #28 on: <10-28-13/2324:55> »
I'll take an M4 or a 416 over any automatic pistol you can put in my hands.  Gender has nothing to do with it.  They're just a bad mix of rate of fire and weight that leads to a drastic reduction in accuracy.  Physics says they suck, not sexism.

Reaver

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« Reply #29 on: <10-28-13/2336:24> »
honesty? the line between SMG and MP gets a little blurry....They both fire the same ammo (pistol cartridges), but the real defining difference is accuracy  muzzle velocity, and size.

MPs are smaller, less accurate at range and generally have a lower muzzle velocity due to a short barrel. They are idea at ranges under 15m and against unarmoured targets.

SMGs have better control, much higher range (50-100m) and more velocity, making them the better weapon for control, armoured targets, and accuracy.


Basically MPs are not the first choice of professionals as a main armament, but may be used as a sidearm.
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