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SMGs vs MPs (or, is full auto worth it)

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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #90 on: (04:32:29/11-14-13) »
Maybe a penalty every time you bring your weapon to bear on a new target, unless you take an action to ready each time, or take aim each time, or something...  Comes down to trying to be fair to everyone, while still having something in place so that there's a reason to use more mobile weapons in close combat.
You mean like the fact an AR is way better at hitting people and as such still does more DPS, despite inferior base damage, against the enemies against who the difference between the two matters? Only the fact that Recoil Compensation is limited means Longarms have use in combat, after the first few shots where they are inferior.

Anyway, I argued mostly with 12 dice. Itīs a shame that was ignored. Still, the argument was made and deemed correct: In combat, Automatics are better even if you do not go for a controversial recoil rule that makes them by far superior. Only in rare situations, namely extremely-high-armor targets or sniping situations where you only get a single shot (AR is perfectly capable of sniping at up to 2 blocks distance, after all).

Given the evidence, I'd deem it unwise to go with the no-accumulative-recoil-on-Simple-Bursts rule, but people are free to do as they desire. As long as they realize they're basically eliminating the Longarms skill from the game, that's fine. And if they don't, well, they're only fooling their own table, and that's just fine.
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RHat

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« Reply #91 on: (04:42:41/11-14-13) »
Maybe a penalty every time you bring your weapon to bear on a new target, unless you take an action to ready each time, or take aim each time, or something...  Comes down to trying to be fair to everyone, while still having something in place so that there's a reason to use more mobile weapons in close combat.
You mean like the fact an AR is way better at hitting people and as such still does more DPS, despite inferior base damage, against the enemies against who the difference between the two matters? Only the fact that Recoil Compensation is limited means Longarms have use in combat, after the first few shots where they are inferior.

Anyway, I argued mostly with 12 dice. Itīs a shame that was ignored. Still, the argument was made and deemed correct: In combat, Automatics are better even if you do not go for a controversial recoil rule that makes them by far superior. Only in rare situations, namely extremely-high-armor targets or sniping situations where you only get a single shot (AR is perfectly capable of sniping at up to 2 blocks distance, after all).

Given the evidence, I'd deem it unwise to go with the no-accumulative-recoil-on-Simple-Bursts rule, but people are free to do as they desire. As long as they realize they're basically eliminating the Longarms skill from the game, that's fine. And if they don't, well, they're only fooling their own table, and that's just fine.

Longarms remains superior for high-ability characters, due to the Accuracy, base damage, and base AP differences - the extra defense penalty is not sufficient to overcome this when the weapon is used by a character capable of using it to its full potential.
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #92 on: (04:46:25/11-14-13) »
the extra defense penalty is not sufficient to overcome this when the weapon is used by a character capable of using it to its full potential.
Just to be sure: You did read my calculations, right? Because those took Accuracy, base damage AND base AP in mind. They used 18-dice attackers vs 12-dice defenders. And even then the Ares Alpha outbeat all Longarms. The only thing not included was the soak test, since adding that would require an awful lot of writing code to math it all out.
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martinchaen

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« Reply #93 on: (10:15:12/11-14-13) »
And I still think you're fooling yourself if you think more realistic recoil rules eliminate the longarms skill, Michael.

A shotgun is still brutally effective up close, and a sniper rifle is still deadly at range, as both were designed to be. The assault rifle is the king of run and gun firefights, as it should be. There's a reason the majority of military police, security companies, and military operators world wide carry SMGs and ARs 99% of the time...

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #94 on: (10:46:37/11-14-13) »
The assault rifle is the king of run and gun firefights, as it should be.
Assault Rifles are the king of run and gun firefights, yes. But sooner or later, they must come up for air, and it is solely that reason that Longarms can be useful in combat. Eliminate the need for air and you eliminate Longarms from Combat. And at that point, people will simply snipe from 150m range with an Assault Rifle. Doing more damage against defenseless enemies is useless when in actual combat you perform worse in every single IP, rather than performing worse in 3 IPs and far better (aka being able to shoot) in the 4th.

So yeah, you think I'm fooling myself, I think you're fooling yourself. And honestly, go ahead and keep doing that. It's not as if you pay attention to the numbers, otherwise you'd not have made that silly claim about shotguns being more effective, despite previous arguments and numbers contradicting that. So if you're not paying attention to reality, I'm not going to waste time showing it to you. Go ahead and keep claiming you're not killing off Longarms by imbalancing recoil, and don't care that nobody will ever take Longarms at your tables. It's your games and your players you're ruining, not mine. As long as you don't harm other players, I'm fine with you being a fool.
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Xenon

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« Reply #95 on: (12:16:16/11-14-13) »
I would rather use an assault rifle than a sniper rifle at such a short distance as 150m. In real life.

I would rather use a sniper rifle than an assault rifle at more than 350m. In real life.

Progressive recoil when you fire bullets as fast as possible but not when you fire at a slower and more controlled rate of fire does not magically make assault rifles better than sniper rifles at long range.

Unlike real life, SR5 rifles (both assault and sniper) are very viable in CQB where shotguns, pistols, machine pistols and sub machine guns should excel. When on a shadowrun (and being caught inside the secret research lab will not really be any worse if getting caught with an illegal firearm) it make little or no sense to use a shotgun or a SMG when the other options include assault rifles and sniper rifles... progressive recoil or not.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #96 on: (12:42:22/11-14-13) »
Progressive recoil when you fire bullets as fast as possible but not when you fire at a slower and more controlled rate of fire does not magically make assault rifles better than sniper rifles at long range.
And I never claimed that. So here I draw the line.
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martinchaen

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« Reply #97 on: (14:19:53/11-14-13) »
Come on, Michael, there's no need for that kind of talk. So what if people don't take the Longarms skill at my table. So what if people don't take Longarms at all?

You seem convinced that just because you care about stats and efficiency, everybody else does too. One of my characters has both the longarms and heavy weapon skills, and uses an AS-7, a Remington 950, and the LMG. I've never felt the need to get an AR because it's statistically better, because it doesn't fit my character.

If you want to prove statwise that one weapon is better than the other, fine, congratulations, you've done so. Do I care? Not even remotely, because character flair is far more important to me than minute efficiency.

The reason I'm arguing revised recoil rules is because it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever that a less powerful semi-automatic pistol cannot fire at the exact same pace as a vastly more powerful hand-cannon (the Ruger) and it's the less powerful of the two that suffers from recoil...

Mirikon

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« Reply #98 on: (15:06:44/11-14-13) »
Unlike real life, SR5 rifles (both assault and sniper) are very viable in CQB where shotguns, pistols, machine pistols and sub machine guns should excel. When on a shadowrun (and being caught inside the secret research lab will not really be any worse if getting caught with an illegal firearm) it make little or no sense to use a shotgun or a SMG when the other options include assault rifles and sniper rifles... progressive recoil or not.
Actually, there are plenty of reasons to use a shotgun or SMG in close quarters. Sure, if all you look at are damage codes, they seem inferior, but when you look beyond that, there's many apparent reasons.

Shotguns - While shot rounds might not do as much damage as your sniper rifle, they can be very good for dealing with grouped enemies, or in subduing enemies, since they're more likely to do stun damage. A shotgun with gel rounds is also damn good at subduing enemies. An Enfield AS-7 with SnS rounds is nasty, as well. A shotgun also works off the same skill as sniper rifles, so it makes for a nice close-in weapon.

SMGs - CONCEALABILITY. Can't stress this enough. An SMG can be easily hidden under even a normal coat, making it much easier to get around town without drawing the attention of the Knights wherever you go. In situations where you care less about "Kill everything dead", and more about "Keep their heads down so I can get away", an SMG is always a worthy choice.

But really, the biggest argument for using these in close combat goes back to the same thing discussed in another thread. Police see you with a pistol, they'll bring out the shotgun. You have an SMG, they bring an assault rifle. And so on. Assault rifles and sniper rifles gets HTR teams on your 20 ASAP. And that's when you get to be on the receiving end of sniper fire, or people mixing flash-bangs and automatic weapons, and the like.
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Xenon

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« Reply #99 on: (16:16:28/11-14-13) »
Actually, there are plenty of reasons to use a shotgun or SMG in close quarters. Sure, if all you look at are damage codes, they seem inferior...
In real life there are plenty of good reasons to use a smaller and more agile weapon in CQB. In real life you get "penalties" for trying to use a long sniper rifle with a powerful magnification scope in CQB or trying to run and fire an assault rifle at the same time. In SR5, not so much.

Shotguns - .... A shotgun with gel rounds is also damn good at subduing enemies. An Enfield AS-7 with SnS rounds is nasty, as well.
Then again, a sniper rifle with gel rounds or SnS rounds is even better
- even if you run n gun with it at very close range (just doesn't feel... "right").

In "my world" pistols, MPs, SMGs and shotguns [should] have some sort of advantage at very close range, when using hip-fire and/or during running combat (or reverse - sniper rifles, LMGs and assault rifles [should] have some sort of drawback at very close range, when using hip-fire and/or during running combat).

But really, the biggest argument for using these in close combat goes back to the same thing discussed in another thread. Police see you with a pistol, they'll bring out the shotgun. You have an SMG, they...
Agreed. Forbidden sniper rifles and forbidden assault rifles are not something you use in your regular outfit.

RHat

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« Reply #100 on: (16:46:49/11-14-13) »
the extra defense penalty is not sufficient to overcome this when the weapon is used by a character capable of using it to its full potential.
Just to be sure: You did read my calculations, right? Because those took Accuracy, base damage AND base AP in mind. They used 18-dice attackers vs 12-dice defenders. And even then the Ares Alpha outbeat all Longarms. The only thing not included was the soak test, since adding that would require an awful lot of writing code to math it all out.

It's more a question of WHERE that point is than anything else.  I'll have to graph it out later.
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DWC

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« Reply #101 on: (23:02:56/11-14-13) »
Some weapons are (in real life) not really made for hip fire.

To be fair, with the notable exception of flamethrowers and the BAR, no firearms are made for hip fire.

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« Reply #102 on: (01:33:09/11-15-13) »
Soak requires more than AnyDice can easily handle, since it means we need to make sure only non-zero values end up getting boosted by base damage, then soaked. So this would require using a program to either calculate or approximate.
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