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SMGs vs MPs (or, is full auto worth it)

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Agonar

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« Reply #75 on: (21:10:52/11-11-13) »
Looks like this issue..  Recoil, has been on other minds as well..

http://shadowrungm.blogspot.com/2013/11/tactics-recoil-and-single-shot-guns.html
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Ghoulfodder

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« Reply #76 on: (12:29:05/11-12-13) »
I may be a bit late back to this, but FA in a firefight is the domain of untrained oiks from what I thought, rather than skilled professionals using short controlled bursts.

Kincaid

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« Reply #77 on: (12:50:05/11-12-13) »
I may be a bit late back to this, but FA in a firefight is the domain of untrained oiks from what I thought, rather than skilled professionals using short controlled bursts.

The 250,000:1 bullet-to-kill ratio in Afghanistan suggests otherwise  :)

Suppressive fire alone is a reason to have FA capability in the group and a Simple Action Long Burst is pretty damn useful too.
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CanRay

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« Reply #78 on: (13:28:02/11-12-13) »
"When it doubt, empty the magazine."

Also, recon by fire.
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martinchaen

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« Reply #79 on: (13:50:59/11-12-13) »
Kincaid; keep in mind that that statistic includes rounds used for training purposes, and that Afghanistan is a warzone more closely resembling the Redmond Barrens than anything else if you ask me...

I suspect Ghoulfodder was referring to smaller teams (such as special forces operatives), and he would indeed be correct; full auto is a last resort for "skilled operatives", who tend to rely on single shots and/or short, controlled bursts when engaging the enemy.

I'd say that shadowrunners more closely resemble the latter rather than soldiers, unless of course your game is set in a warzone (or the Barrens/Warrens). Copious amounts of full-auto fire, even if silenced, should definitely attract a lot of attention in downtown Seattle. A good reference for this is the movie Heat, where the cops go total apeshit (as you would expect) when a small team of operatives start firing fully automatic weapons at them...

I do agree with CanRay, though I've heard it as "When in doubt, full auto!", or "When in doubt, C4!" (the latter courtesy of Jamie Hynaman, or however you spell his name, off of Mythbusters).

:D

Kincaid

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« Reply #80 on: (14:29:26/11-12-13) »
Yeah, I wasn't being entirely serious about that analogy (although my Marine friends assure me that ratio is mostly the Army's fault).

Shadowrunners are generally best served by being subtle and silent.  While a starting-level character won't approach a SOCOM operator, it's not a terrible thing to emulate for the gun-happy archetypes.  With that in mind, FA is useful for those moments when you want to display overwhelming force (like in Heat).  Not all the time and generally for a small window of time, but very handy to have when you need it.  It shouldn't be anyone's first option, but it should be on every team's list of options.
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martinchaen

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« Reply #81 on: (14:36:22/11-12-13) »
Kincaid; Agreed, 100%. Full auto to me is for those OH SHIT moments where all attempts at subterfuge has failed and your only option is to either kill them all or keep their heads down while you make your escape.

Also, speaking as an OEF:A veteran who has personally fired more than 20k rounds during practice alone, I'm fairly confident that all branches are guilty of this trend; after all, even Marines need training :)

Ghoulfodder

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« Reply #82 on: (17:37:46/11-12-13) »
I may be a bit late back to this, but FA in a firefight is the domain of untrained oiks from what I thought, rather than skilled professionals using short controlled bursts.

The 250,000:1 bullet-to-kill ratio in Afghanistan suggests otherwise  :)

Suppressive fire alone is a reason to have FA capability in the group and a Simple Action Long Burst is pretty damn useful too.
Suppressive fire is an entirely different proposition though, and not really whats being talked about with FA in shadowrun terms. Suppressing is most of the shooting from what I understand of real world firefights.

But then I'm a Brit and have only touched a real gun once in my life. Although a pal of mine has served.
« Last Edit: (17:39:59/11-12-13) by Ghoulfodder »

RHat

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« Reply #83 on: (18:24:46/11-12-13) »
I may be a bit late back to this, but FA in a firefight is the domain of untrained oiks from what I thought, rather than skilled professionals using short controlled bursts.

The 250,000:1 bullet-to-kill ratio in Afghanistan suggests otherwise  :)

Suppressive fire alone is a reason to have FA capability in the group and a Simple Action Long Burst is pretty damn useful too.
Suppressive fire is an entirely different proposition though, and not really whats being talked about with FA in shadowrun terms. Suppressing is most of the shooting from what I understand of real world firefights.

But then I'm a Brit and have only touched a real gun once in my life. Although a pal of mine has served.

Well, suppressing fire IS one of the advantages, perhaps the chief advantage, of fully automatic weapons in Shadowrun.
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Crunch

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« Reply #84 on: (18:37:04/11-12-13) »
Hitting really jumpy dudes is also a plus.

Xenon

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« Reply #85 on: (13:04:06/11-13-13) »
On phone do can't really write an essay.

Michael picked an illegal assault rifle you can start with. I picked an illegal long arm you can start with. Didn't really put much thought or effort in that selection. Same result if you pick FA SMG vs SA heavy pistol or a FA MP vs SA light pistol.

15 Dice to avoid is a high Dodge target. I already said FA mode have edge here. Thanks for numbers.

SA weapon will be slightly better against targets that does not have very high Dodge pool and/or you have a good attack pool (hitting is not an issue and lower accuracy limit on FA weapon might be an issue, several FA weapons have base accuracy as low as 4).

SA is a lot better when target is unaware (often the case when using long arm several hundred meters away) or if target have very high Armor (like cyborgs with armor on cyberlimbs - FA weapon might deal stun instead of physical)

Also - In SR5 you don't have any penalties for using a rifle highly mobile CQB. Not even when doing full auto while running our even using a sniper rifle. Normally (in real life) it would be a lot better with a pistol, MP or a SMG. Would like to see double running penalty for rifle and heavier. plus running speed movement penalty for heavy weapons and penalty if you do not take aim before using sniper rifles.
« Last Edit: (14:11:52/11-13-13) by Xenon »

Agonar

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« Reply #86 on: (23:47:24/11-13-13) »
Also - In SR5 you don't have any penalties for using a rifle highly mobile CQB. Not even when doing full auto while running our even using a sniper rifle. Normally (in real life) it would be a lot better with a pistol, MP or a SMG. Would like to see double running penalty for rifle and heavier. plus running speed movement penalty for heavy weapons and penalty if you do not take aim before using sniper rifles.

I don't want to come down just on the sniper rifle user, but when you get down to it, the only real downsides to a sniper rifle is pretty much social acceptability, and the price.  Have to be careful out on the streets, or in public, being seen with a large weapon, or being seen by the police.  But once you are on a run, there is nothing mechanical to stop someone from using a sniper rifle with the same ease of clearing hallways and rooms, as one does with a handgun or SMG, and they do much more damage.
13P and -4 AP for the Desert Strike vs 11P and -2AP for one of the better ARs, 8P and no AP for the better SMGs, 9P and -2AP for a roomsweeper...

So I, too,  have been trying to come up with sniper rifle mods.  There is one PC in my game that uses a Sniper rifle on Runs, and some of the other players complain about basically the way there's no difference between a sniper rifle and a pistol in combat, except the damage.  Why use an assault rifle, or a pistol, when you can use a sniper rifle in close range gun fights just as effectively.

I've been thinking of doubling the -3 penalty for shooting while in melee if you have a longarm
or cutting "short" range in half, and giving it a -3 penalty because using a scope at short ranges is ineffective, and not using the scope to fire from the hip is ineffective.
or requiring a "take aim" action before firing to negate the -3 penalty imposed above.

Maybe a penalty every time you bring your weapon to bear on a new target, unless you take an action to ready each time, or take aim each time, or something...  Comes down to trying to be fair to everyone, while still having something in place so that there's a reason to use more mobile weapons in close combat.
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Novocrane

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« Reply #87 on: (00:05:15/11-14-13) »
Quote
the only real downsides to a sniper rifle is pretty much social acceptability, and the price
With the release of the SVD, this becomes social acceptability.  :P

Xenon

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« Reply #88 on: (04:04:22/11-14-13) »
Some weapons are (in real life) not really made for hip fire.

Elektrycerze3

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« Reply #89 on: (04:17:16/11-14-13) »
Some weapons are (in real life) not really made for hip fire.

Although some hips are made for huge Recoil Compensation 8)

That was a bad joke, wasn't it?)
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