NEWS

SMGs vs MPs (or, is full auto worth it)

  • 102 Replies
  • 19059 Views

Xenon

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 5662
« Reply #45 on: <11-08-13/0840:22> »
I argue that RAW can be read both ways. The quote further support the interpretation of RAW that you only get progressive recoil of you spend a full complex action shooting bullets.

I argue that RAI is that you don't get progressive recoil if you don't spambullets as fast as you can.

Real Life experience also support the idea that you don't get progressive recoil to the point that you have zero chance of hitting anything if you take short breaks between your semi automatic shots, 3-bullet burst shots and short 6 bullet full automatic bursts.



Was not the cost I was thinking about when I said you burn more ammo. Ammo is more heavy than some of might think ;)

....But since since APDS is accessible at chargen most players tend to get that for their already illegal fully automatic Ares Alpha assault rifle (it also got a grenade launcher and in SR5 grenades are win). APDS and FA will together cost you a lot more than100 nuyen per run.

Michael Chandra

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 9477
  • Question-slicing ninja
« Reply #46 on: <11-08-13/0858:15> »
Recoil partially is your arm tiring from keeping up the firing. That's where your natural recoil compensation kicks in. I doubt there's people who can fire an entire clip with 1.5s per shot without their aim suffering.

As for the RAI debate: That already happened quite enough, and wasn't why I replied here. I replied because you stated that if RAI isn't your RAD, you'd houserule it, and I argued against the use. So that you argue RAI even though RAI also is unclear is utterly irrelevant at this point.

I also think your houserule is screwing over Longarms users, which I consider unfair. They already pay the price by not having burst-fire easily available, making the choice for Longarms worthless due to a change in recoil mechanisms is hardly fair and ruins the balance between Longarms and Automatics.

As for costs: Gelrounds are 2.5 per round.
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

Nico

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 40
« Reply #47 on: <11-08-13/0908:03> »
Honestly, everyone has 2 recoil compensation by themselves and can easily score another point or two with the right weapon. If by the time you, as a 1-IP-per-CT person, are starting to suffer from recoil, the combat isn't over yet, you're not in the right league anyway.
The 1 IP/turn semi-auto marksman is obviously an exaggerated example. It doesn't change a thing about the fact that according to the stricter interpretation of the rules, if two equally fast people fire a Tiffany Needler and a Panther XXL side by side at the same rate of fire, only one of them will suffer from recoil penalties. And that completely flies in the face of all reasonable expectations.

Saying the problem can be discounted based on how long it takes for the problem to pop up in a fairly unlikely situation is missing the point, I fear. As it is now, recoil has plenty of counterintuitive, unrealistic and arbitrarily limiting aspects to it, and the strict reading of the "entire initiative pass" rule adds yet another.

I agree with Xenon that the cost of large bursts is twofold already: Firstly a prerequisite in RC to be able to make proper use of it in the first place, and secondly ammo expenditure. Sure, the system doesn't give weight for gear, but show me the GM that wouldn't raise an eyebrow upon hearing that your character has a dozen assault rifle magazines strapped to their body. Action economy is one of the steepest costs that can be imposed on anything in a tactical RPG, and the strict reading DOUBLES your action economy cost of simple action attacks. Sure you can do other stuff inbetween like take aim, reload your weapon and shop for more ammo on shad-e-bay, but all that would do is eliminate the action economy cost of those things.

Longarms users have either the advantage of range and surprise, thus completely negating the need for burst, or the advantage of non recoil penalized choke settings that also allow multiple target attacks without splitting your dicepool. On top of up to BF bursts.

martinchaen

  • *
  • Guest
« Reply #48 on: <11-08-13/0926:13> »
To be fair, Michael, arguing that Longarms users get screwed by Progressive Recoil resetting is a bit like the pot calling the kettle black. Not only is it hyperbole, but it's patently untrue. Allow me to demonstrate.

First; Longarms include shotguns, which have vastly higher damage output potential at short range compared to MPs and SMGs. True story.
Second; Two of the three shotguns in the core rules come with SA (capable of semi-auto burst) and/or BF modes, both of which would benefit from this interpretation, thus making longarms MORE viable.
Third; The remaining type of longarms is sniper/sport rifles, which are intended for a completely different combat team role. A sniper rifle has 10 times the range of an SMG, and 30 times the effective range of an MP.

In my opinion, saying that a more lenient reading of the Progressive Recoil rules, which would make pistols, shotguns, and smaller automatics more viable compared to Assault Rifles, is utterly ridiculous. Does it massively unbalance the game? No. Don't believe me? Try it...

But hey, RAW is ambiguous (obviously, or this discussion wouldn't be happening) so go with what you feel is right. In my experience with firearms, I choose to go for what makes sense to me, and the biggest issue I have with the restrictive reading of Progressive Recoil is the following:

A character firing a Ruger Super Warhawk, the SR equivalent of a modern day S&W .500 which generates massive amounts of recoil, could squeeze of all 6 rounds (5 in the case of the S&W) one after the other without ANY penalty to his aim.

In contrast, a character firing a Streetline Special (something like a Glock 26) would face an increasing penalty to hit his target, despite firing at the same rate and using a weapon that is less powerful by several orders of magnitude. How is that in any way fair?

Look at it this way:

SS weapons have high damage output potential and are powerful (represented in SR by high AP values); most of them are also fairly accurate (judging by their accuracy rating, with the sole exception of shotguns).
SA and BF weapons, by contrast, have lower damage output potential and fire less powerful rounds (less AP); most of them can compensate for a lack of accuracy by firing hails of bullets down range.
FA weapons bridge the gap between the two, but are loud and difficult/impossible to conceal.

It makes sense to me that an SA weapon firing at the same speed as an SS weapon benefit from the same unrestricted recoil rules, because it deals less damage. However, SA and BF weapons have the potential of being more difficult to avoid (as it should be, when you've got bursts of metal coming your way). But that's just me...

Michael Chandra

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 9477
  • Question-slicing ninja
« Reply #49 on: <11-08-13/0940:53> »
The 1 IP/turn semi-auto marksman is obviously an exaggerated example. It doesn't change a thing about the fact that according to the stricter interpretation of the rules, if two equally fast people fire a Tiffany Needler and a Panther XXL side by side at the same rate of fire, only one of them will suffer from recoil penalties. And that completely flies in the face of all reasonable expectations.

Then why not apply Strength requirements to be able to fire an Assault Cannon? I mean, you're lifting it so Strengthx5 would apply to how much weight you can manage. Seems silly to change recoil rules for all weapons based on Heavy Weapons players being problematic. Also, if your GM gives you a hard time for having a dozen assault rifle magazines with you (honestly, 3 on your body and 9 in a bag would be perfectly fair, and it's not as if you ever need more than 4 clips in a single gunfight), why would they not give you a hard time for carrying an Assault Cannon with a lot of ammo for it with you?

"Saying the problem can be discounted" <--- I do not know what you are talking about. Can you explain exactly what you mean and where I said something that you consider to be saying the problem can be discounted?

Action Economy: A Sniper Rifle costs anywhere between 10k and 28k so their cost makes any ammunition costs irrelevant, especially once we start modding them with "Weapon Cost" modifications. A sport rifle is as expensive as an Ares Alpha and does a bit more damage, but cannot fire bursts of any kind and thus also cannot use Suppressive Fire, meaning it hits less against high-dodge enemies. Trust me, I missed burst-fire options when facing Shedim. So while yes, a gunhappy gunbunny will spend more on ammunition, they get to tag their enemies far more easily. The longarms user, on the other hand, eventually has to splurge on a sniper rifle which nullifies all ammunition costs the Automatics user might have.

As for your Longarms arguments, let me tackle those one by one.

- The advantage of range and surprise applies to both longarms and automatics. At 51~150 meters they both are in Medium Range. So that isn't a significant difference between the two.
- Choke settings come with a quite significant loss in damage and also are only useful when enemies bundle together.
- Furthermore, they're only available for shotguns with flechette ammo, which makes lethal shots impossible. So vs Drones and Spirits this has zero value.
- Shotguns have really lousy Accuracy and are worse in range than an Assault Rifle.
-> As a result of the above points, choke shots are only really useful in close quarters.
- The automatics expert can apply Suppressive Fire instead, this will do much more damage.
- BF is available, yes, on a shotgun with 4(5) Accuracy where you must decide between easy ammo switching or a decent clipsize. And that shotgun is useless at very large ranges, unlike an Assault Rifle, and has no FA options.

As such, I do not believe Longarms have enough advantages left over Automatics under a ruling where accumulative recoil does not ever apply to Simple Action firing. Defense penalties are far more powerful in SR5 than in SR4, so Accumulative Recoil helps balance out Automatics.
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

Xenon

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 5662
« Reply #50 on: <11-08-13/1039:41> »
I think you misunderstood action economy Michael

Michael Chandra

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 9477
  • Question-slicing ninja
« Reply #51 on: <11-08-13/1050:15> »
Ah, sorry. He was talking about ammo costs and then action economy, I assumed that was about how expensive your actions are.

By the way, I do think a "two Simple Actions of nothing" reset of recoil might work out, though I'd have to check it out to be sure. It puts a limit on your action sequences and you can't just throw FA burst after FA burst that way, but it also means BF weapons would in essence never face recoil consequences when used and modded properly.
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

Dal Thrax

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 108
« Reply #52 on: <11-09-13/0103:20> »
Most SS weapons cannot take a silencer.   Have a silenced throw away pistol that you can ditch so that the ballistics can't be traced back to you and a AR on your back to use if things get real.

Then again, most GMs overlook forensics.  If they didn't the team would have to ditch there guns every time they use them and not bleeding on the run would be a bfd.
Warning: most likely posting from a tablet.

Reaver

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6205
  • 60% alcohol 40% asshole...
« Reply #53 on: <11-09-13/0149:38> »
Most SS weapons cannot take a silencer.   Have a silenced throw away pistol that you can ditch so that the ballistics can't be traced back to you and a AR on your back to use if things get real.

Then again, most GMs overlook forensics.  If they didn't the team would have to ditch there guns every time they use them and not bleeding on the run would be a bfd.

I keep the forensics to a "corp" model... as in "just how much time is this crime worth?"
1) "random SINless guy" shot to death? Maybe 10hrs work.
2) rolling street battle in the business core? 3000 hrs.
3) homicidal rampage, killing several officers and civilians? 50000 hrs.
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

The Wyrm Ouroboros

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 4470
  • I Have Taken All Shadowrun To Be My Province
    • VU93 Writeup for The Wyrm Ouroboros
« Reply #54 on: <11-09-13/0204:23> »
I'm sorry, every time I go past the MP section I can't help but think of the comment (by Nightfire?) in the original Street Samurai Catalog, when the first MP was introduced.  "Great, now I can flatten light ammo against body armor faster than ever before."
Pananagutan & End/Line

Old As McBean, Twice As Mean
"Oh, gee - it's Go-Frag-Yourself-O'Clock."
New Wyrm!! Now with Twice the Bastard!!

Laés is ... I forget. -PiXeL01
Play the game. Don't try to win it.

Reaver

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6205
  • 60% alcohol 40% asshole...
« Reply #55 on: <11-09-13/0209:45> »
I'm sorry, every time I go past the MP section I can't help but think of the comment (by Nightfire?) in the original Street Samurai Catalog, when the first MP was introduced.  "Great, now I can flatten light ammo against body armor faster than ever before."

Lol, good quotes back then :)
It was like a 4L weapon as I recall too
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Crunch

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 2268
« Reply #56 on: <11-09-13/1512:27> »
I'm sorry, every time I go past the MP section I can't help but think of the comment (by Nightfire?) in the original Street Samurai Catalog, when the first MP was introduced.  "Great, now I can flatten light ammo against body armor faster than ever before."

Lol, good quotes back then :)
It was like a 4L weapon as I recall too

I'm trying to remember t6he staging number, was it a 4L1 or a 4L2?

Ghoulfodder

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 229
« Reply #57 on: <11-09-13/1547:13> »
Has anyone said that SR5 is a representation of 'real' life with quite a bit of abstraction, rather than an attempt of genuine simulation?

It absolutely isn't particularly realistic at the extremes of low IPs. But then it's surely just as mental at the other end if you go with a single simple action resets recoil, then someone manages four IPs and can fire off six-round bursts at four different targets nowhere near each other in 3 seconds, for negligible recoil penalties with a bit of care in gun selection.


Xenon

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 5662
« Reply #58 on: <11-09-13/1758:13> »
to get 4 IP per combat turn you have an initiative of at least 31(!)
to get that reliably you need 6 reaction, 6 intuition and improved reflexes 3.

A "normal" rate of fire for a fully automatic weapon in 2013 would be around 800 RPM.
This give us a time-frame of 0.375 seconds to fire 6 bullets

3 seconds per combat turn divided into 4 IPs divided into 2 simple actions give us that
...each simple action is also 0.375 seconds. cool :)


0.000 start of first IP. fire 1st bullet at first target.
0.375 fire 6th bullet at first target and end of first simple action in first IP
spend the second simple action to recover recoil and aim at the second target.

0.750 start of second IP. fire 1st bullet at second target.
1.125 fire 6th bullet at second target and end of first simple action in second IP
spend the second simple action to recover recoil and aim at the third target.

1.500 start of third IP. fire 1st bullet at third target.
1.875 fire 6th bullet at third target and end of first simple action in third IP
spend the second simple action to recover recoil and aim at the fourth target.

2.250 start of fourth IP. fire 1st bullet at fourth target.
2.625 fire 6th bullet at third target and end of first simple action in third IP
spend the second simple action to recover recoil and wait for the second combat turn

3.00 second combat turn start.


Not sure I would agree it is "just mental" to have a chance to land just one bullet per burst when you spend [almost] 0.4 seconds to spray bullets per individual target and then spend [almost] 0.4 seconds between sprays to handle recoil and aim at the next target.

- certainly not when you consider that this is from someone that is as wired as you can get in the futuristic setting of 2072. A very fast but not wired person would get 2 IPs (and 1.125 seconds between each spray to eliminate progressive recoil).


To get at least 6 points of recoil compensation you need one free point that everyone get, weapon modded with shock pads on the shoulder stock that provide 1 point and an expansive barrel design even for 2072 standards that provide 2 points. The user is also not only an extremely quick  person he is very strong too; and that provide the last 2 points of recoil compensation.
« Last Edit: <11-09-13/1805:51> by Xenon »

Michael Chandra

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 9477
  • Question-slicing ninja
« Reply #59 on: <11-09-13/1937:08> »
Here is my problem with Recoil never accumulating if you use a Simple Action: Constant Simple Full Bursts thrown around for a -5. Now that we only get 1 attack action and attacks are easily dodgeable, the dodge penalty has become far bigger a weapon. In SR4, against most opponents that dodge penalty merely translated to more damage and most people simply used narrow bursts. In SR5, with dual-statted dodge pools and less dice modifiers, it's harder to hit so that dodge penalty far more often makes the difference between yes and no. And since you can't fire 9 rounds per IP but only 6, you need less RC.

And yes, that 6 points of Recoil Compensation is easy. We're talking Automatics user, ergo Ares Alpha + Shockpad is already 5 recoil compensation (so a constant -4 defense basically), and you could just get a gas vent rating 2 rather than a shockpad, it's only 350 nuyen more.

Within the bigger picture of the full game rebalance, having recoil accumulate unless you stop firing for more than a single Simple Action makes a lot more sense to me than being able to spray at a -5 dodge every IP.
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!