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[5E] Cyberlimbs and Body Attribute.

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Chrona

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« on: <11-17-13/1913:26> »
So I have used the Search Function to see if this was brought up before and couldn't find anything to help (If it is in something something like buried deep in the Rules Verification thread then feel free to quote).

While trying to help one of my players make his character, I realized that Cyberlimbs no longer have their own Body Attribute. I didn't think too much of it (As they have armour for increasing damage resist) at the time. Then I thought about character advancement. If you raise your Body Attribute through Karma, how can it be assumed the cyberlimb is keeping up with you?
Is this just a new abstraction in SR5 and it is all ways at your Body without needing upgrading or does the Limb actually have a Body of it's own that isn't mentioned, including whether this is customization and enhanceable to at least keep up with your natural attribute exceeding it through spending karma?

Thanks guys.
« Last Edit: <11-19-13/1912:45> by Chrona »

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #1 on: <11-17-13/1919:52> »
As far as I can tell, the Cyberlimb simply no longer has Body and still has no Reaction, these are determined by your meat stats and the limbs just tag along.
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Chrona

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« Reply #2 on: <11-17-13/1921:28> »
Well... I'm going to internally struggle with these limbs magically able to become sturdier with the rest of you but i will just move on and deal with it.

Thanks for the help Michael

Novocrane

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« Reply #3 on: <11-17-13/2012:02> »
If you feel the need to specifically damage a cyber limb, you do have the option of matrix damage & bricking to represent it.

spuwdsda

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« Reply #4 on: <11-18-13/0507:17> »
The whole damage and damage resistance mechanics are so abstracted, rationalising issues like this is a dubious exercise. There are more simulationist systems damage mechanics out there, but does SR need more complication?

If it helps you could say that the Body attribute is (in part) the ability of meat body to withstand damage - it isn't so much mechanically 'tougher' as more tolerant.
 
 

Mirikon

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« Reply #5 on: <11-18-13/1003:43> »
Indeed. Shadowrun doesn't have hit locations or limb damage rules. Personally, I think this is a good thing. I've tried playing Hero System with those rules, and it makes combat a royal pain in the ass.
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Anarkitty

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« Reply #6 on: <11-18-13/1138:38> »
I think of it in the sense that the cyberlimb is more durable and resistant to damage in general (being made of metal and having redundant systems and no blood to lose or nerves to damage) than any meat could possibly be.  Even a character with Body 12 is softer and squishier than a steel and polymer robot arm.

Rather than thinking of it as the Body of a cyberlimb increasing with the metahuman it is attached to, think of it as the Cyberlimb having a body of 20 or so, and the Metahuman wearing it getting closer to the same level of durability as they get tougher.

Chrona

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« Reply #7 on: <11-18-13/1719:23> »
Yeah I can be okay with the abstraction. It just feels it falls apart once someone has more limbs than flesh. In a full cyberbody, it man that the fact you are 4 completely metal limbs and your only fleshy bits are cased in the same "much tougher" cyberware material you are still as vulnerable as just those fleshy bits (obviously this is in the case of not taking Armour enhancements.)
I suppose this is meaning to be covered in the fact that that person has 6 more Physical hit boxes but It still feels weird and like it is not being represented by the right part of the damage system.  Someone of Body 5 and 6 Cyberlimbs (No Armour enhance) takes the same damage resist as someone with body 5 and no Cyberlimbs, if you are trying to consider the limbs being tougher than the meat.
It isn't something I am upset about or will houserule, it just is not sitting right but oh well, it is just an abstraction to simplify things.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #8 on: <11-18-13/1722:14> »
Consider it more how well the core can handle the shocks. The leg being shot-up isn't what the problem is, getting the massive hit is the problem, and your very core getting exhausted. And I like how it means you don't have to take a third attribute into account when getting Cyberlimbs, means Trolls can actually get Cyberlimbs at chargen.
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Godwyn

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« Reply #9 on: <11-19-13/0259:15> »
No extra damage resistance, but extra hit boxes still show a not inconsiderable boost in toughness.  So someone at body 5 who takes 11P damage is down.  Someone with body 1 and 3 cyberlimbs who takes 11P damage is still standing, even if it is quite hurt and taking massive penalties.  Each cyberlimb provides an additional box no matter how many boxes you already have, or how much body you have.  This shows that cyberlimbs are pretty durable, and provide additional durability when added to a metahuman body.

Reliability is nice also.  No matter how many extra dice a limb gave, it could not resist something, but that extra box is always working.

Chrona

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« Reply #10 on: <11-19-13/0943:35> »
No extra damage resistance, but extra hit boxes still show a not inconsiderable boost in toughness.  So someone at body 5 who takes 11P damage is down.  Someone with body 1 and 3 cyberlimbs who takes 11P damage is still standing, even if it is quite hurt and taking massive penalties.  Each cyberlimb provides an additional box no matter how many boxes you already have, or how much body you have.  This shows that cyberlimbs are pretty durable, and provide additional durability when added to a metahuman body.

Reliability is nice also.  No matter how many extra dice a limb gave, it could not resist something, but that extra box is always working.
Yes I all ready acknowledged that that is why the box is added but that i just feel that the limb having twice the health/durability but not being anymore resilient than meat to be weird. In the end it is all right though, there is still the armour enhancement and it is just an abstraction.

Consider it more how well the core can handle the shocks. The leg being shot-up isn't what the problem is, getting the massive hit is the problem, and your very core getting exhausted. And I like how it means you don't have to take a third attribute into account when getting Cyberlimbs, means Trolls can actually get Cyberlimbs at chargen.

I suppose this is in keeping with limits and Gear not making the person anymore in 5th.

Anarkitty

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« Reply #11 on: <11-19-13/1145:32> »
It doesn't matter how damage resistant the limb is, if a bullet hits the meat, the meat is what gets damaged and the meat gets no benefit from the chrome to resist that damage. 
Ultimately, no matter how much chrome you have, the meat is what's important.  Damage the meat enough and the chrome becomes useless no matter how durable it is.

Chrona

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« Reply #12 on: <11-19-13/1338:16> »
It doesn't matter how damage resistant the limb is, if a bullet hits the meat, the meat is what gets damaged and the meat gets no benefit from the chrome to resist that damage. 
Ultimately, no matter how much chrome you have, the meat is what's important.  Damage the meat enough and the chrome becomes useless no matter how durable it is.
Which is why i gave the example of people with a lot of cyberlimbs and less meat to hit.

But this is all getting very repetitive now, i think it has been exhausted.

Xenon

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« Reply #13 on: <11-19-13/1735:43> »
Lots of cyberlimbs = more physical monitor boxes and a lot more [potential] Armor rating = more durability and more damage soak dice = gg

Chrona

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« Reply #14 on: <11-19-13/1911:42> »
Lots of cyberlimbs = more physical monitor boxes and a lot more [potential] Armor rating = more durability and more damage soak dice = gg

Yes. repetitive.

Locking before someone feels the need to say the same thing others have, again.