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SMGs vs MPs (or, is full auto worth it)

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Emil_Barr

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« on: <10-01-13/1911:59> »
I guess this is really a question of concealability. After all, if concealability wasnt an issue, the answer is AR :P

If you want a concealable weapon with some punch, it seems like MPs are better. The Crusader is better than every SMG other than the Praetor. The Praetor is the only SMG with the ammo count to really make good use of full auto. Its also the only one thats forbidden.

So is full auto really enough of an advantage to mitigate the generally lower accuracy and concealabilty of SMGs vs MPs?

JackVII

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« Reply #1 on: <10-01-13/1934:46> »
Ranges are massively different, if that matters in games in which you play.
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Emil_Barr

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« Reply #2 on: <10-01-13/2000:54> »
Ranges are massively different, if that matters in games in which you play.

That is true, and I did not consider that. :)

martinchaen

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« Reply #3 on: <10-01-13/2042:59> »
Full Auto to my mind doesn't really shine until you pack LMGs or better; squeezing off 20 rounds per action results in a lot of lead flying down range.

I would completely discount Full Auto from the equation when comparing SMGs and MP, as neither were designed to perform that task well and so will more likely than no do all that well at it... But, that is just my personal opinion.

To my mind, if you're worried about concealment you're unlikely to start laying down suppressive fire when the drek hits the rotary air propulsion device...

RHat

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« Reply #4 on: <10-01-13/2135:20> »
Full Auto to my mind doesn't really shine until you pack LMGs or better; squeezing off 20 rounds per action results in a lot of lead flying down range.

I would completely discount Full Auto from the equation when comparing SMGs and MP, as neither were designed to perform that task well and so will more likely than no do all that well at it... But, that is just my personal opinion.

To my mind, if you're worried about concealment you're unlikely to start laying down suppressive fire when the drek hits the rotary air propulsion device...

Suppressing fire is not the sole benefit to FA weapons.  That -9 to dodge is pretty handy in a high defense environment, especially if you can handle a decent share of the recoil.  Given general damage values, that can be a one-shot kill pretty easily - especially if you're set up to handle the recoil (Gas Vent 3, Praetor, and a decent amount of Strength).  Put a Smartlink on that Praetor, and your potential damage goes up to 16.
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martinchaen

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« Reply #5 on: <10-01-13/2158:25> »
That's assuming you're willing to carry a Praetor. At that point, you might as well carry an assault rifle, unless you're attacking a person or place where you actually need to conceal the weapon up until the last minute. The F of the Praetor makes it not worth it to my mind, unless we're talking Chicago CZ.

I absolutely agree on the FA, but 9 recoil is hard to compensate for on an SMG. With a Gyromounted L/HMG, at least you can soak most of that for a two rounds, and your damage potential is way higher.

I still say SMGs and MPs are close range, precision weapons, not defensive arms. For that, you want an assault rifle or better.

RHat

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« Reply #6 on: <10-01-13/2209:36> »
That's assuming you're willing to carry a Praetor. At that point, you might as well carry an assault rifle, unless you're attacking a person or place where you actually need to conceal the weapon up until the last minute. The F of the Praetor makes it not worth it to my mind, unless we're talking Chicago CZ.

I absolutely agree on the FA, but 9 recoil is hard to compensate for on an SMG. With a Gyromounted L/HMG, at least you can soak most of that for a two rounds, and your damage potential is way higher.

The SCX is pretty much just as good as the Praetor.

I will grant that using FA with an SMG is very much an alpha strike tactic, but it is an effective one for taking down high-priority targets.  Besides, the question here is about weapons in the general size range of an SMG/Machine Pistol, which directly excludes things like Assault Rifles or LMG's.
« Last Edit: <10-01-13/2212:23> by RHat »
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martinchaen

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« Reply #7 on: <10-01-13/2224:09> »
Good point. In my opinion, I would choose the high accuracy non-FA Restricted MP or SMG over the Forbidden FA MP or SMG any day of the week.

My choices would be the Ares Crusader II, or the SCK (HK-227 if silencer and Gas Vent is needed).

CanRay

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« Reply #8 on: <10-01-13/2337:46> »
The right tool for the right job.

Some needs the subtlety of a MP, some need the punch of an SMG.  Sometimes only a Panther Assault Cannon will do.

And when things get worse than that, my old hometown taught me the cure for everything:  "P for Plenty!"  ;D
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Noble Drake

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« Reply #9 on: <10-01-13/2352:44> »
The right tool for the right job.
Couldn't agree more.

My personal thought on the matter, however, is that the increased concealability of a machine pistol compared to an SMG can be the tipping point between which one to carry regularly.

Xenon

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« Reply #10 on: <10-02-13/0444:56> »
Get both (and an assault rifle with a scope. and a LMG with a gyromount). They all use the same skill ;)

IMO there are 3 or 4 benefits of having access to FA mode.
1) AoE situation. Multiple (at least more than 2) hostile targets (suppressive fire have a good chance to hit them all and it does not generate any progressive recoil)
2) You have low-ish Initiative (suppressive fire last the entire combat turn).
3) One of your opponents have a very big defense pool, maybe a physical adept (-9 dice on the defense test will make a huge difference... but progressive recoil will be nasty)
4) You are accurate enough (or strong enough) so you can still land bursts when spending less than an entire Action Phase shooting (as this give your target a -5 defense pool). This might or might not be an advantage as it depend on how you handle progressive recoil at your table(*)

Burning huge amount of ammo is an issue, but if you have a smartgun you can fire a simple action, eject clip as a free action and insert a new clip - all in the same action phase and without smartgun you can still fire a simple action and eject clip... insert new clip and fire during the next action phase.

If you have a low initiative and intend to use FA mainly for suppressive fire you would generally want access to a lot of ammo (at least 40 bullets or more; ideally a belt-fed LMG)




SA and BF also offer a lot of advantages, but since all MP and SMGs have BF mode (and most of them have SA mode as well) this will not really matter so i will not list them here.




(*) There are currently still two interpretations on the matter. One school claim that Recoil penalties are cumulative over every Action Phase unless the character takes "an action other than shooting" for an entire action phase (not shooting in one simple action and not shooting in the other simple action) - While the other school claim that Recoil penalties are cumulative over every Action Phase unless the character takes an action other than "shooting for an entire action phase" (like shooting in just one simple action and not shooting in the other simple action).
« Last Edit: <10-02-13/0840:43> by Xenon »

Emil_Barr

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« Reply #11 on: <10-02-13/0532:33> »
Get both (and an assault rifle with a scope. and a LMG with a gyromount). They all use the same skill ;)

Did you mean SMG and not LMG? I believe machine guns use heavy weapon skill

Xenon

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« Reply #12 on: <10-02-13/0840:03> »
doh. my bad :)

Mirikon

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« Reply #13 on: <10-02-13/0923:49> »
I'll admit that when I play a character who focuses on Automatics, I typically grab a machine pistol (sometimes two), a SMG, and an Assault rifle. Multiple weapons gives you options. Options, IMO, are a Good Thingtm. Use the assault rifle for when you want to go loud and heavy, loaded up with as much RC as you can get. Use the SMG for times when you need power, but desire something that can more easily be hidden under your lined coat. Use the machine pistol (perhaps suppressed) when concealing it is your main concern, or as a backup for the others. A sling on the AR and SMG and a concealed holster on the MP make it so you can carry them all fairly easily.

Personally, I rarely used FA in 4th, and I don't expect I'll use it much in 5th, either. The main places I used FA were with drones (vehicle mounted weapons don't suffer recoil, so why not?) using an LMG. I've used suppressive fire maybe twice. And that's mainly because in my low-init characters, I typically take something like Longarms (for characters who used sniper rifles at a distance, and shotguns up close), and Pistols (for a Face).
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Emil_Barr

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« Reply #14 on: <10-02-13/0935:32> »
doh. my bad :)

An SMG cant go on the accessory version of the gyromount. It only works with ARs or bigger.

Probably works with the cyberarm version though. Im not sure, since I never took it even in SR4A