[Bull]

Emotitoys should burn, burn, burn.

*IF* Emotitoys and the associated software return in SR5, I imagine it will be a good deal different, considering the fact that pretty much everyone and their dog went "Holy crap this is broken".

[Michael Chandra]

The dogs usually after they chewed them into bits.

Going from 8 to 9 will cost you 18 weeks. o_O That's 4.5 runs in downtime and 3 runs in karma. 6->10 is basically 68 karma and 53 training weeks so 1.25 years including 13 runs (which pay the karma just fine). Assuming you can simultaneously train an Attribute at the same time (training rules are a bit ambiguous right now), it's doable I guess.

Oh, Bull, I checked Firing Line, dicepools are 12+, 12+, 12+, 11- and none feel like a real do-good run, so that's 6/6/6/5 karma right?

[Bull]

Sounds about right.  though after getting ShadowRon's ASS kicked in Humanitarian Aid, I'm beginning to rethink the karma award for that one.

[spoiler]Auslander is a beast if the GM goes balls to the wall.  Force 8 Shedim.  He overcasts toxic Wave at Force 16.  Plus pre-edges the casting roll, so he's got 24 dice with exploding 6's, starting at 16DV with -16 AP.  holy drek! Ow.  I ended the fight one box of overflow from burning permanent edge to stay alive.  two players at the other table at our Firebase that Tinner ran DID die (though he pulled the Toxic Wave a little, but they had a tougher time with the fights before that, so both dead characters had taken a beating already).[/spoiler]

[Michael Chandra]

[spoiler]In our case, Auslander did cast Armor first since Shedim don't have Immunity. That put him at a -2 on all his test, he rolled 9 hits with Edge in our case on that Armor roll. He had 2 Shedim with him, after the 5 players had managed to beat 9 Shedim and the mage was pretty banged up. Mage ended up overcasting an area spell, we didn't know how to apply Spell Defense so applied it to the Resistance roll, not the spellcasting roll. Otherwise that spell probably would have knocked out a few players as well as soften up the good ol' doc.

Now since Regeneration doesn't recover Drain damage, I don't think he'd be foolish enough to overcast his spells unless he feels cornered. In Romero&Juliette, the adventure notes he will not overcast until he really feels forced. Also, at that Force, he'd have a hard time hitting the team and not himself on an island of only about 100m diameter and a much smaller clearing.

In all fairness I should note that in Romero & Juliette's 'recap' of Humanitarian Aid, the team went down except for 1, but they managed to survive without casualties.

I also think the Shedim got too much Edge. Spirits got halved in SR5, Shedim probably should too. Romero&Juliette pretty much confirmed Auslander was too tough by letting him start with only 4 Edge.[/spoiler]

At 8 Edge and roughly following the implied guideline of 2 enemies per player at the start (a dozen said in synopsis, with 6 players on a team that's 2 per), I agree it's definitely much tougher. ^_^ Still, he shouldn't be overcasting, drain damage hurts too much, too suicidal.

[Dr. Meatgrinder]

[spoiler]Shedim lack Immunity to Normal Weapons only because there are no rules in SR5 for Possession.  In SR4, a spirit possessing a vessel became dual-natured and had Immunity to Normal Weapons (p. 102, Street Magic).

Strangely, Auslander lacks even the Possession power in the SR5 stat block (as do the other Shedim).[/spoiler]

[Michael Chandra]

[spoiler]They didn't have it listed in their SR4 stats either though, if I recall correctly, in SW. We played him without Immunity, with Immunity he becomes way, way tougher. At that point, even with halved Edge, he's very very VERY dangerous even by himself against a group of 6.[/spoiler]

[Bull]

[spoiler]yeah, that got overlooked.  Obviously they were possessing, since they had bodies.  And we used the Immunity power for them, since, well, we're us. Oi.  ShadowRon is not fond of Force 6 and 8 Spirits either, lemme tell you. [/spoiler]

[Michael Chandra]

[spoiler]With Immunity and without his backup, and if Spell Defense decreases AoE spell hits to cause scatter... Of course, the GM didn't let us use a Spirit's Concealment and said Auslander and co. had taken Perception tests in advance so it didn't matter I was sneaking in the bushes at their +3 instead of -2. With a much tougher encounter, I imagine he'd have given us more chances to prepare proper defenses, his inexperience with Missions GMing was partially at play here. Oh, and he forgot that where we took -3 from Heavy Fog with Thermographic Vision, the Shedim would have been at -6. Whups. ^_^' He did mention that as Missions complaint: No clear description of what level the modifiers are on.

With my sniper hidden in the bushes I'd have shot Auslander half to death, even if both of us used Edge on that first shot. If you also do not give him a full 8 Edge but, like Spirits, 4 instead, he'd get drained faster. So that makes it decently survivable, though very tough.

Of course the next point of debate is how many Shedim you face in advance, since those soften up the players. GM went "you guys are taking too long, roll Sneaking" and bam, it'd have been easier if we'd had managed that more sneaky, especially when taking potshots in advance.

Let's see... Auslander isn't taking a Simple Perception action at first and focusing on those in the clearing, so that'd be a -2. Give him a -6 from the fog and we're talking 8 perception dice vs 15 sneaking dice, bam. And that's without Concealment. So a sneaky sniper potshot is an option. Roll 12 dice after vision penalties, reroll for ~7 hits, 12P/-8 +7 = 19P/-8. 8 Body + Immunity 16-8=16 dice + 4 autohits, edge it with a reroll for 9 hits: 6 damage taken. And just like that he's halfway gone. But without that, oh boy... The clearing is what, 30m radius? A Force 8 Toxic Wave likely hits most in the clearing.

Now I want to do this fight properly with Immunity from Possession, a dozen Shedim vs 6 players, and let the players be smart and plan tactics, rather than getting caught flatfooted because they suddenly have to roll Sneaking even when one character can't sneak.[/spoiler]

[Top Dog]

[spoiler]Why is everyone posting in spoilers?
Giving Auslander Immunity would be... painful. I'd have certainly ran him without additional Shedim if that were the case. As it was, the balance seemed nice, with the players having serious difficulty, but prevailing in the end (the extra 2 shedim were basically cannon fodder at this point).

The perception thing was... annoying to adjudicate. Between thermographic vision and shadow cloak and a nonspecified amount of darkness and fog means I basically fudged it. I did roll at -3 for the Shedim though (same as the players), that's why they only saw one of you (who rolled 1 success on his stealth - and the Shedim do have one sweet dice pool). And the only reason why they got to make that at all was because you were all taking your sweet time. I expected you all to shoot them in the head the moment you realized what was going on but after minutes passed I figured it was time for a perception check.

The penalty didn't apply to Auslander because he assensed you. I still made the roll to spot you (and only you I believe - most people were walking in the open, no roll needed). He just happened to roll rather high. As to why he assensed you - the mission describes him coming out of nowhere and surprising everyone by smashing someone against a tree. He's a rather brilliant character, I figured it'd make sense for him to look and see what he's dealing with before rolling in. And he's smart enough to glance to the side to see if there's snipers hidden in the bushes.

Auslander ended up doing a fair bit of damage, but I didn't let him cast excessively high force spells. Turns out that was a good choice - I still ended up almost knocking him out from drain before the players could do serious damage.[/spoiler]

[Michael Chandra]

At that point we get into the waspnest named Assensing vs Sneaking. But there's 2 things to note.

1: That still means he took his sweet time observing.
2: I was in the middle of a forest, surrounded by auras. Also astral visibility penalties.

[Pollution]

@Pollution How do you get 20 dice when the max Negotiation skill is 6 (7) + 2 for Specialization + Charisma? At best, I'd think you could manage 8 CHA, which would put you at 16 (17), which buys 4 hits putting you at Avail 19...

I doubt that things like Pheromones apply to those tests, which is the only way I can see reaching 20 dice.

Without anything weird, I have my 6 Charisma + 6 Negotiation + Bargaining at chargen.  That's 14 dice.  Spent karma for Negotiation 7 & 8 gives me 16 dice.

Now it get's into the area of GM discretion, as RAW for the other 4 dice would be:

Tailored pheromones: These pheromones
are specially tailored to subtly
influence others and can be released
at will. Tailored pheromones add their
Rating as a dice pool modifier to your
skill tests for skills in the Acting and Influence
skill groups, but only when the
person you’re using them on is within a
comfortable conversation range—if they
can’t smell you, the pheromones don’t
work. Tailored pheromones also work
on you to make you feel better about
yourself; increase your Social limit by the
Rating. Tailored pheromones have no effect on magical
abilities and tests.

So,RAW,  if you're combing the streets and markets looking for a deal on the item in question (chatting up fixers in a bar, or dropping hints to legitimate gun dealers) then you'd get the bonus for that.  As Negotiation is in the Influence skill group, you're good to go.  So that's +2 Dice.  Since Bull approved this method above, we're all good.

The First Impression quality enables a character to slide
easily into new environments, situations, groups, and
jobs. Whether infiltrating a gang, making contacts in
a new city, or wrangling an invite to a private meet,
the character gains a temporary +2 dice pool modifier
for relevant Social Tests such as Negotiation and Con
during the first meeting. This modifier does not apply
to second and subsequent encounters

Again, RAW, this would work in many cases.  Now this one is a bit of a stretch.but as a GM I would allow it.  you're not going to deal with the same folk when you're looking for new and different equipment all the time.  So again, first time meeting a Fixer in a bar trying to get a line on a restricted or forbidden item, he's going to be hesitant to sell info to you on where to get the item (he doesn't know you, you could be an Ares spy, or undercover Lone Star/K.E.), First Impression would help with that.  Again, that one may be pushing it a bit, but it would work in my home games.  it's RAW that Negotiation is affected, so there's the other +2.  And, if we're allowing Tailored Pheromones, this makes sense too.  A bit shiftier, but still legit.

I cannot find anywhere in the book where these two are considered not legit with buying equipment.  Quite the contrary, they SPECIFICALLY mention Negotiation (or Influence skills).

And, the best part (IMO) is that I went Skills, Attr, Nuyen, Human, Magic for my chargen, so I'm actually decent in a fight too (13 dice for Firearms group and I also have Wired Ref. so he's not weak)

[The Smiling Bandit]

By the way: Why wouldn't pheromones apply?

Anyway: 8 Charisma, 6 Negotiation, +2 Bargaining, +3 Improved Negotiation, just 1 die short even without augmenting charisma (how does an adept boost charisma?) and mentor spirit. Can go 7 charisma and Dragon Slayer, or 7/8 Charisma, Aptitude, 7 Negotiation and +4/+3 Negotiation. All you need in Missions, really. Sacrifice 1 Magic for Tailored Pheromones 3 and go full-out and bam, 24 dice.

Elf with exceptional charisma, aptitude, totem bonus, Specialization, adept boost
9±7±2±2±3. Tailored Pheromones gets you too 26 face to face, first impression could also be put in the mix

[ZeConster]

The First Impression quality enables a character to slide easily into new environments, situations, groups, and jobs. Whether infiltrating a gang, making contacts in a new city, or wrangling an invite to a private meet, the character gains a temporary +2 dice pool modifier for relevant Social Tests such as Negotiation and Con during the first meeting. This modifier does not apply to second and subsequent encounters

Again, RAW, this would work in many cases.  Now this one is a bit of a stretch.but as a GM I would allow it.  you're not going to deal with the same folk when you're looking for new and different equipment all the time.  So again, first time meeting a Fixer in a bar trying to get a line on a restricted or forbidden item, he's going to be hesitant to sell info to you on where to get the item (he doesn't know you, you could be an Ares spy, or undercover Lone Star/K.E.), First Impression would help with that.  Again, that one may be pushing it a bit, but it would work in my home games.  it's RAW that Negotiation is affected, so there's the other +2.  And, if we're allowing Tailored Pheromones, this makes sense too.  A bit shiftier, but still legit.

I see nothing legit about allowing First Impression for obtaining gear. Something with a high Availability will have very few channels through which it can be obtained (so at the very least, this would only work once unless the item categories are vastly different), and depending on circumstances, it's entirely possible you'll end up dealing with the same person multiple times during a single try (unless you're saying all leads will be 100% successful and you won't have to go back to someone to ask for another lead, or to arrange transport for the gear they helped you locate). At the very least, "make sure never to deal with a single person more than once" sounds like it would give a negative dice pool modifier.

[Bull]

At the end of the day, I ultimately feel this isn't a huge issue.  There are a few limits in place to keep this from being abusive during downtime, and the uber-face pronomancers can often only do so much in-game, since we cap the money from the various Mr. Johnsons to keep negotiations from getting out of hand, and often a face alone just cannot do the job you need to do.  If someone is investing that heavily into being a face, they have gaps in other areas that the rest of the team will need to fill and need to utilize during the game, and that's as it should be.

Everyone has their role, and so long as one character isn't dominating the entire game session, then we're doing it right. 

[Michael Chandra]

You dominate the entire game session in one thing: You dominate in dying! *insert dalek cackle*