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ETA on Errata

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All4BigGuns

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« Reply #45 on: (01:36:29/10-16-13) »
All I can tell you is I and many others have been extremely dis-satisfied with Hasbro and their handling of WoTC since they took a more direct hand in WoTC  (2006/2007).

So just shortly before they ruined D&D...
(SR5) Homebrew Archetypes

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Reaver

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« Reply #46 on: (02:02:05/10-16-13) »
they started giving crappy service around the last year or so of the 3.5 edition run. And that crappy service has extended into 4th edition as well and become the Defacto model for them (in many people's eyes). It is also indicative of how they have handled other departments of their brand name (computer games for the short time that Hasbro acted as a publisher, which they have thankfully gotten out of mostly)

as to "breaking D&D".... that is a matter of opinion. SOME people LOVE 4e D&D.

however, if I wanted to play a video game, I would. IT's faster then a PnP game.... and $e was basically a videogame on paper. (IMO)
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All4BigGuns

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« Reply #47 on: (02:05:14/10-16-13) »
SOME people LOVE 4e D&D.

Mainly those who got into it at that point...

however, if I wanted to play a video game, I would. IT's faster then a PnP game.... and $e was basically a videogame on paper. (IMO)

A video game or WoW on paper, yeah, pretty much.

Pathfinder is what D&D 4th should have been.
(SR5) Homebrew Archetypes

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Reaver

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« Reply #48 on: (02:46:26/10-16-13) »
SOME people LOVE 4e D&D.

Mainly those who got into it at that point...

however, if I wanted to play a video game, I would. IT's faster then a PnP game.... and $e was basically a videogame on paper. (IMO)

A video game or WoW on paper, yeah, pretty much.

Pathfinder is what D&D 4th should have been.

I enjoy pathfinder.. at least I don't have to follow the cookie cutter characters that 4e DnD demands you make.

under pathfinder, I can make my dual wielding short sword DEX fighter....

Or my xbow Paladin...

Or my two handed club rogue.....

or any one of 10,000,000 other characters that 4e DnD just didn't let you make.
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Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #49 on: (04:48:02/10-16-13) »
they started giving crappy service around the last year or so of the 3.5 edition run. And that crappy service has extended into 4th edition as well and become the Defacto model for them (in many people's eyes). It is also indicative of how they have handled other departments of their brand name (computer games for the short time that Hasbro acted as a publisher, which they have thankfully gotten out of mostly)

as to "breaking D&D".... that is a matter of opinion. SOME people LOVE 4e D&D.

however, if I wanted to play a video game, I would. IT's faster then a PnP game.... and $e was basically a videogame on paper. (IMO)
I liked 4e, really. But they should have admitted their mistake (took playtesting results, changed a rule, didn't test it, and monsters in MM1 turned into slugfights) rather than basing an entire new sub-edition on the fix they should have simply made public. And the unified class theorem went somewhat too far even for my taste. Still, it was much easier to use, a perfect D&D Lite. Which used up way too many books. Might have been better to not make a D&D Lite Lite at that point but simply make AD&D again.
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DanJ

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« Reply #50 on: (06:05:36/10-16-13) »
um... seeing as its easy to read stuff on message boards and get an immediate catastrophe complex, I need to ask:
I own both the hardcopy and pdf versions of sr5.... should I even bother trying to learn the new game until errata is released or is it serviceable with some gm liberties?

at the risk of me totally taking the tone of peoples comments the wrong way.....

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #51 on: (06:36:24/10-16-13) »
There's a few missing rule segments and a few where a GM simply has to decide what version to follow until errata are released. Only a few character types suffer from the confusion.
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Reaver

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« Reply #52 on: (06:42:35/10-16-13) »
um... seeing as its easy to read stuff on message boards and get an immediate catastrophe complex, I need to ask:
I own both the hardcopy and pdf versions of sr5.... should I even bother trying to learn the new game until errata is released or is it serviceable with some gm liberties?

at the risk of me totally taking the tone of peoples comments the wrong way.....

honesty? The game IS perfectly playable as written... but common sense WILL have to be applied in some areas as the rules complex, confusing, or just missing! (like the fact your fall down if your stun track is filled... that somehow missed being mentioned)

there is a lot of whining and crying over some things. (A little too much IMO). but it's not totally broken as some would have you believe. Room for improvement and clarity? you bet. but not unplayable.

Just remember 3 simple things....
1: in 5e, everything has a "price", if you can't see what you are giving up for some option, you are either missing something, or the rules are incomplete in that area... apply common sense to find the balance point.

2: if it seems "too good" you probably missed something, go back and re-read the section again, but look for the "fluff" of the rule... (Spirits come to mind... Mechanically, they whoop ass... but there is a heavy RP element to spirits most people gloss over and not apply, thus removing the balancing factor in spirits)

3: apply the rules fairly across the board to PC and NPC alike. And if you are going to houserule something, stay consistant on it. The house rule applies to the PCs and the NPCs, not either, or....
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Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

DanJ

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« Reply #53 on: (06:45:00/10-16-13) »
Thank you for the info guys :)

Which character types if I may ask Michael?
« Last Edit: (06:48:50/10-16-13) by DanJ »

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #54 on: (07:18:37/10-16-13) »
If you're working under the HotPatch, pretty much just Riggers, Magic-boosted characters with Ware, Multiattackers and anyone within a hundred meters of a wireless or motion sensor grenade.

Riggers suffer from a lack of clarity on when they use what physical/mental/matrix attributes basically, a lack of intel on what is used to dodge for drones and no drone repair rules. The problems with RCC-Programs-Sharing-Drones phrasing have been solved by clarifications from Aaron which led me to suggest an errata'd phrase that clarifies it all. What stacks/clashes with what is even more a puzzle than in SR4, firing 2 weapons at 1 person, splitting bursts or throwing multiple knives at 1 person are all supposed to be an option but not covered properly and grenades are a total disaster thanks to a lack of a dodge test (motion sensors scatter 1d6 meters if they miss so still hurt like hell) combined with chunky salsa: If a single grenade explodes near you and there's a wall near you on the other side, you're pretty much dead.

You can houserule grenades but the rigger stuff, combination of augmentations+magic and what to do with multiple attacks aren't as easy to handle.
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DanJ

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« Reply #55 on: (07:21:15/10-16-13) »
Thanks for the response. By hot patch do you mean rules clarifications in the errata thread? (I don't usually use these forums much)

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #56 on: (07:38:07/10-16-13) »
No, the Hot Patch errata document for Shadowrun Missions, which basically pre-empts the Errata by releasing a few really-needed ones for usage in Missions. A GM would be a fool not to use them at their home games as well, since they are quite useful.

http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=12106.0
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DanJ

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« Reply #57 on: (07:48:36/10-16-13) »
Thank you very much. You've been extremely helpful. I very much appreciate it :)

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #58 on: (10:15:50/10-16-13) »
You're welcome. :) Have a great time and make sure to check out http://www.catalystdemos.com/Venues.asp to see whether you can play any Shadowrun Missions near you. :)
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Agonar

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« Reply #59 on: (00:19:36/10-17-13) »
Well, I've ran a game where someone fired a grenade into a large room with the Runner team, and even without the dodge test, no one ended up dead, even with Chunky Salsa in effect.  They were using High Explosive, so the damage dropped off fairly quickly, even considering the rebounding off the wall.

I haven't yet encountered any problems in the magic+Ware department.

And as for Multiple Attacks, I've also used it in the game, exactly how it's written, and it works just fine.  Decide the length of the burst you are firing, split it among the targets, Split your dice pool as per the multiple attacks action, and go with it.  There's a nifty Sidebar (p.180) on the modifiers to apply to defenders if you aren't firing enough bullets at them to comprise a typical burst.  Do they specifically say "When splitting bursts, you must split it this way"?  nope, but it really doesn't have to, as it works just fine they way it is
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