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New player character class

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Critias

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« Reply #15 on: <09-06-10/1554:30> »
Unless you, y'know, use the motorcycle's speed and maneuverability to just totally get away from the big, ugly, cager...like riders do in real life.   ;D

The_Gun_Nut

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« Reply #16 on: <09-06-10/1603:32> »
True, but bullets are faster than bikes.  Cars and trucks have at least SOME armor to help mitigate the damage coming your way.
There is no overkill.

Only "Open fire" and "I need to reload."

Casazil

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« Reply #17 on: <09-06-10/1625:17> »
Now don't listen to Cas. Jump into the deep water and pick up a Technomancer. Yes it can be frightening but you will learn a lot.

Pay no attention to this man he reads books once and then knows the rules (dam memory of his) so he likes to go off the deep end and does well at it.

He also has a thing for technomancers and cyberzombies. (oh by the way we're friends if you haven't guessed we play in each others games)
"If at first you don't succeed blame someone else"
Joel "Casazil" Rogers
Catalyst Demo Team Shadowrun Special Agent #251
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/CasazilsShadowrun/

Critias

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« Reply #18 on: <09-06-10/1626:51> »
True, but bullets are faster than bikes.  Cars and trucks have at least SOME armor to help mitigate the damage coming your way.
Right.  And in Shadowrun, so do motorcycles.  They just get less. 

Really, I think the two are fairly well balanced, in-game.  Bikes get a bit of a speed and handling edge, cars get a body/armor edge...Toss in a little Rule of Cool, and the way I want to make a go-ganger every time I get home from taking a ride, and motorcycles are the way to go.  ;)

FastJack

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« Reply #19 on: <09-06-10/1634:18> »
Quote
Always play part of yourself if you like slinging mojo then do that. Dont over specialize. Just cuz you can drive better than everybody else means you have no skills anywhere else. Alot of runners go down cuz they can't react to the run.

So true XD, anyway it doesn't cost to much karma to upgrade your skills and attribute(in comparision to other games), so don't spend all your BP on maxing AGI and Firearms if you can't even throw a grenade, dodge a katana strike or patch yourself up a little (first aid), and plz, plz, don't pick the motorcycle only because it's cool, you can also take a car, bike makes you so vulnerable and are so easy to destroy when you are in a car chase.
Actually, I'd recommend Specialization when possible, especially if you only drop 1 rank in the skill (bring the specialization up to 3 for just 2 more BP). And since it no longer penalizes you for non-specialized portions of the skill, it makes more sense.

Casazil

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« Reply #20 on: <09-06-10/1637:59> »
As there are no hit locations in Shadowrun and shooting from a moveing car chaseing a runner on a bike seems like the GM would say no way your getting aiming or called shot on him wouldn't the bikes armor come first in the defence test?
"If at first you don't succeed blame someone else"
Joel "Casazil" Rogers
Catalyst Demo Team Shadowrun Special Agent #251
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/CasazilsShadowrun/

FastJack

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« Reply #21 on: <09-06-10/1644:14> »
According to SR4, you're correct Caszil.

Quote from: SR4 20th, p171
     Attacks must specifically target either the passengers (in which case, the vehicle is unaffected) or the vehicle itself (in which case, the passengers are not affected). The exceptions to this rule are ramming, full-automatic bursts and area-effect weapon attacks like grenades and rockets—these attacks affect both passengers and vehicles.
     If an attack is made against passengers, make a normal Attack Test, but the passengers are always considered to be under Good Cover (though the Blind Fire modifier may apply to the attacker as the situation dictates.) Passengers attempting to defend an attack inside a vehicle suffer a –2 dice pool modifier to their dodge, since they are somewhat limited in movement. Additionally, the passengers gain protection from the vehicle’s chassis, adding the Armor of the vehicle to any personal armor the characters are wearing. Called shots may be used to circumvent one armor or the other but not both.

The_Gun_Nut

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« Reply #22 on: <09-06-10/1645:55> »
Why would it?  You CAN call shots to target people in a vehicle, just fine.  Just as you can call a shot to take out the tires/radiator/whatever on a vehicle.  It does require a called shot to target people in a car or truck, but, honestly, I wouldn't require one for a bike.  It makes no sense to have a bike provide armor unless it wraps around the rider somehow (some of the funky ones do, but you have to check the descriptions and/or the illustrations to know for sure).  Strict game rules take a back seat to common sense on this one.
There is no overkill.

Only "Open fire" and "I need to reload."

Casazil

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« Reply #23 on: <09-06-10/1651:38> »
I'm sorry to let you know but back in the 90's they pronounced common sense dead it was a sad day for me.

Ok back to biz yes you can shoot someone on a bike BUT and this me as a GM saying I'd add die pool negitives your moveing he's moveing (probally alot) and then called shot on top of that wow thats gonna be hard but sure I guess i'd allow it.

But just randome shooting at the guy no your hitting the bike.

(yes Magus I know Durant would hit the guy!)
"If at first you don't succeed blame someone else"
Joel "Casazil" Rogers
Catalyst Demo Team Shadowrun Special Agent #251
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/CasazilsShadowrun/

FastJack

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« Reply #24 on: <09-06-10/1654:39> »
It's more about the user's profile while riding a bike. Think of how a person crouches down and lays on a racing bike. In that case, they are almost prone and harder to hit, so a ordinary shot could hit them or the bike. By calling it, you have to choose whether to ignore the bike's armor (focusing on their torso and large extremities) or their personal armor (focusing on unarmored extremities like the head or arms, making it more likely you might hit the bike).

If you're dealing with choppers, then it's not about the profile but the sheer bulk of the bike and how flanges/exhausts/windscreens/etc. might be in the way of your shot.

The_Gun_Nut

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« Reply #25 on: <09-06-10/1750:30> »
Right.  It's how the bike and the rider combine and interact with one another.  On the one hand we have potential cover bonus (could be as cover or the called shot penalty, whichever feels good to the GM) or a more hardened cover penalty/bonus (penalty to hit, bonus to armor).  In general, though, motorcycle riders are far, far more exposed than passengers in a car or truck.  I don't feel that the bike can provide any significant protection.
There is no overkill.

Only "Open fire" and "I need to reload."

Critias

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« Reply #26 on: <09-06-10/1834:03> »
Why would it?  
Because the rules say so, and the stats and costs provided for vehicles are based around that say-so?

It's because motorcycle riders are more exposed that cars tend to have higher Armor stats.  Most of the time you're looking at half again as much Armor on even the most basic of cars.  

As a rider myself, I'd totally understand if a GM wanted to house rule it to say otherwise...but as it is, I don't think it's game breaking.  Pistols tend to be overpowered because pistols are common in crime/cop/gangster flicks, lots of characters want to use them, and the game wants them to be effective.  Motorcycles are similarly a little more "buff" than they should be, because they're more affordable transportation for a Shadowrunner, and fit the Rule of Cool to a t.  I don't think the game's broken or anything, personally, despite knowing -- first hand -- how much more exposed and fragile a motorcycle rider is to a driver in a car.
« Last Edit: <09-06-10/1836:03> by Critias »

Kontact

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« Reply #27 on: <09-06-10/1854:19> »
Whoa, thanks for the tips. A few questions and concerns though: 1: what is pre-gen weapon specialist, 2: I like wired- reflexes, and syth- muscle implants, but I don't want to be a chromed out Sammie. I like subtley over all things, but when it is time to throw down, I like to be able to take a few guys out.

If I had to play a character, I would like it to be similar to a spec ops recon/infiltration type, who keeps things quiet, and gets out quickly.
Also, I prefer smart googles to cyber eyes (so I can keep essence as high as possible so magic doesn't eff me up.) is there some sort of cyber armor I can wear that will give me a boost to agility and strength, when I am attempting to steal something from the corps? Maybe just an adaptive camo suit like in Metal Gear Solid 4, which I could strap some armor plates to?

There is a Weapons Specialist sample character in the core book.  Not the best Runner.  Would make a better contact really...
Wires are only the cheapest way to get 3 passes per combat turn; they certainly aren't the best.  Muscle toner is the best though.  A little vat-grown muscle takes you from the pinnacle of human agility to straight-up superhuman agility.  Stim drugs can get you up to 2 passes on the cheap.  Going adept sounds like your speed though.  Combining Physad powers with select bioware and a touch of cyber is a long-standing tradition.  Though, we are getting a bit more complicated now...
For powered armor, you need military grade stuff.  Very high-profile though.  All of that is in Arsenal if you've got that book.  If you don't, you should.  Arsenal has the weapons, armor, chems, toys and vehicles, as well as the rules for modifying them to next level operation.  One of those options is Ruthenium Polymer coating, which is your basic stealth suit chameleon stuff.  The core book has the Chameleon Suit though, which is the same principle, just you're stuck with the 6/4 armor value.
« Last Edit: <09-06-10/1938:39> by Kontact »

Casazil

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« Reply #28 on: <09-06-10/1857:38> »
The core book also has a gun adept for him to look at for ideas.
"If at first you don't succeed blame someone else"
Joel "Casazil" Rogers
Catalyst Demo Team Shadowrun Special Agent #251
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/CasazilsShadowrun/

Glyph

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« Reply #29 on: <09-06-10/1909:18> »
Firearms and stealth complement each other well, in game terms.  From the firearms side, you want high Agility and Intuition.  The former to fire your weapons accurately, and the latter to boost your initiative and help you make perception tests.  And Agility and Intuition are the Attributes that are used for the stealth skills.

I would recommend the stealth skill group, but for firearms, the skill group is only good if you actually plan on using such a wide variety of firearms.  Generally, you are better off getting pistols and one heavier weapon type such as long arms or automatics.  Specializations might be cheaper after character creation (since 2 build points is generally worth more than 2 karma, the cost to buy a specialization), but it is still worth it for your core abilities, to have those 2 extra dice right out of the gate.

Your main three areas for a ranged combat specialist are extra initiative passes (at least three is ideal, since that puts you past most of the normal security that you will encounter), Agility boosting (muscle toner is the best), and a smartlink (cybereyes are the best, but you can get the same thing from glasses, or even contacts).  For stealth, you want a chameleon suit and some tools.  If you don't have the build points left for the technical side of covert entry, the maglock passkey and lockpick gun are both useful tools.