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5th ed, Trolls, and cyberware. Oh my.

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Cyphermagnum

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« on: (17:58:20/09-13-13) »
So, first post - putting the nomex body suit on - and I've a question. About Trolls. And cyberware.

Some background - I did a forum search, and got nothing on this topic. Which may mean I'm a slow pony - while i've read every version of SR from 2nd Ed on, i've never tried to PLAY it (till now). Full apologies if this is a dead horse I'm resurrecting.

I'm making some characters as NPCs to familiarize myself with the process. Everything was peachy (more or less), from the Elven Decker to the Ork Shaman - and then I tried the Troll Street Sammy. For a lark, i thought it would be fun to kit him up with double full cyberarms (more for story reasons than mechanics). So, I got the default arms - and here's where the problem begins.

Cyberarms default to STR 3 / AGI 3. That's two STR points lower than the MINIMUM for Trolls.  If you apply the same methodology for "average" STR (3 out of 6), the standard Troll limb starts at "average" Troll STR - 7. So - do I have to buy it up (customize) to Stat mins? Even if you don't factor in the +50% markup for Troll gear (yes, i know it's being talked about - looks like it's meant to be Lifestyle only - more on this below), it's pretty damn expensive just to get a functioning Troll limb.

Was this a problem before in previous editions? If so, how does it get solved?  Thanks for any light to shed.

PS - on the whole Troll/Dwarf Markup for Gear/Lifestyle - while I agree it gets STUPID expensive to kit out a Troll with custom gear at start, it makes complete sense from a realism perspective - doesn't matter how readily Evo will make metahuman limbs, the simple increase in mass, materials and engineering validates a +"x"% to gear, as well as lifestyle. While i agree that characters at base generation can't really afford it, from a role-play aspect i'm probably gonna charge a in-game "tax" for all gear purchased after initial load-out. There's a price for being a bridge-lurker. :)

EDIT: this may also need to be in the Rules Section rather than Errata. Mods, let me know if i'm in the wrong club.
« Last Edit: (18:00:34/09-13-13) by Cyphermagnum »

JackVII

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« Reply #1 on: (18:24:30/09-13-13) »
Yeah, this should be in the Rules section or possibly house rules, I imagien they'll move it at some point. It does kind of suck. I suggested a house rule for a more streamlined approach to cyberlimbs in the 5E House Rules thread over in the Rules thread if you want to check it out. It's not 100% realistic (although you could probably get 90% there explaining it), but it prevents Trolls paying excessive amounts and also eliminates the hero cripple who is now the best street sam at Chargen that people seem infatuated with right now.
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TX_DM

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« Reply #2 on: (18:40:31/09-13-13) »
I actually agree with Troll cybernetics being massively expensive at chargen. As far as trolls go, things are 100% more expensive, and I agree that cyberwear should be as well. Why? Well, trolls are massive, and also rare. Trolls are as rare as Elves, but 4x the weight and 2x the height. Trolls also aren't nearly as socially accepted as other metahumans so why should their accessories be as cheap?


Cyphermagnum

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« Reply #3 on: (18:51:25/09-13-13) »
Thanks for the comments, all.

TX_DM, i'm actually 100% with you in theory - it makes perfect sense that anything for a troll is gonna cost more - but it gets so damn prohibitive, i'm afraid it would encourage people NOT to go that route. And let's face it, cybered-up trolls are pretty cool :)

But yes - gonna have to play with some house rules and see what makes the most sense.

Thanks again!

ZeConster

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« Reply #4 on: (18:51:35/09-13-13) »
I actually agree with Troll cybernetics being massively expensive at chargen. As far as trolls go, things are 100% more expensive
I thought they'd changed it so Dwarfs and Trolls just had a +20% and +100% to monthly Lifestyle costs.

But yeah, stronger cyberlimbs should cost more. The biggest problem with trolls and cyberlimbs, in my opinion, isn't the cost, but that they can't get a maxed out cyberlimb at chargen (it would have 13 Availability) unless they buy it Used.
Like JackVII, I've suggested some houserules to deal with cyberlimbs: although they're mostly there to prevent people from taking a racial minimum in Agility and/or Strength only to have a cyberlimb with [max+3]/[max+3] stats, the third one also makes it possible for Trolls to start with maxed out cyberlimbs. (It also means you can't use cyberlimbs that have been designed for another metatype, but that's not likely to come up.)

martinchaen

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« Reply #5 on: (19:06:50/09-13-13) »
You are all neatly forgetting that even though Trolls had a higher item cost in SR4, it was not enforced at chargen. As a Troll player, I would be massively annoyed by having to pay an additional 50% for ALL items, not just 'ware.

Yes, wired reflexes could potentially need "more" 'ware for a Troll. Yes, the gun would need to be adapted to their hands. But come on, the cyberdeck does NOT necessarily need ANY modification at all, as it could potentially be controlled through VR anyway. And that suprathyroid gland? Who's to say it's any bigger in a Troll compared to a human; for all you troll physiology experts out there, let me know how synaptic nerve endings in a troll brain work, because I have no idea what the size their brains are.

And the above is exactly, to my mind, why it's a good idea for Trolls and Dwarves to just have to pay an increased lifestyle costs; no fuss, no muss.

I play a Troll ganger (a knuckledragger) in SR5; he's got Reaction Enhancers 2, Wired Reflexes 1, and Bone Lacing (Aluminium), for a total of around 80k. At the street level we started at, I not only maxed out the 75K I got from Resources A and spent karma to get the funds needed, I also made do with the 0 special points I got because I had to pick metatype second to even have a CHANCE of affording USED cyberware at chargen. I don't care how much "sense" it makes for Trolls to have to pay more from a setting perspective; I can tell you right now that I'd walk away from the table if a houserule like the above had been proposed, because there is no way in HELL that is fair. Next you'll tell me that because dwarves are small, they should pay LESS for cyberware. How's this for rationale; Trolls don't have to pay more for cyberware because their systems are much more resilient than the other metatypes (reflected by base BOD of 5), and as such 'ware made for trolls are less costly to produce because of the lower quality of raw materials needed. There, solved.

It's already been stated well and clear that Trolls do not pay additional gear costs, only lifestyle. To me, that's the end of the discussion right there.

Now, as for the cyberlimbs; yep, as per RAW you'd have to stat it up from 3 to desired stat. It sucks. Which is probably why you'll see more trolls with muscle toners and augmentations than you will cyberlimbs.

Was this a problem in SR4? You bet, same rule.

TX_DM

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« Reply #6 on: (19:29:21/09-13-13) »
Stuff

Houserule whatever you like, I'm voicing my opinion on the matter, I do find it funny that, judging by the tone of your post, your all mad about it.

The rules are the way they are, and I *think* its to keep the Troll Samurai from being overly out of sync with the power levels of other chars at chargen, as in an attempt to keep the phys limit below 13, and hand to hand damage or melee damage below 15p. People still make twink characters at chargen with loopholes and the like and end up with 34 dice pool and 24 phys limits all the time though so, whatevs, whatevs.


martinchaen

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« Reply #7 on: (19:45:15/09-13-13) »
TX_DM; I'm not houseruling anything, quite the contrary in fact. The houserules suggested in this thread directly contradicts the only errata documents that have been released so far, which clearly states:
"- Dwarves and Trolls have a lifestyle modifier to represent special needs due to their sizes and physiology (20% and 100%, respectively).
- Neither race pays additional cost to have gear customized. This is factored into lifestyles already."

Link: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=39470&view=findpost&p=1251857
This is the "hot-patch" errata for the official SRM games held at conventions.

As to my mental state of mind, that is of no consequence to this discussion as I was merely stating what the rules are, as well as my own point of view on the houserules proposed; do not mistake my brusque nature for anger.

And as far as "twink" characters go, whatever that may be, it is not only possible but rather easy to create a STR 10 Troll with Rating 3 Muscle Augmentation bioware at character generation, giving an effective unarmed DV of 13S. A simple combat axe ups that to 18P in melee combat, with a reach of 3, and the player hasn't spent more than 76k nuyen and 0.75 Essence for used 'ware. That is not to say that such a build is not overly specialized, I happen to think it is, but if people enjoy playing that kind of character who are you to tell them that they are "wrong" for doing so? Isn't the objective for each player to have fun, not just by themselves but as a group?

So again, if a GM were to houserule something like has been proposed, I for one would walk away, because it doesn't fit my view of the setting, and because it would make it significantly harder for me to play the kind of character I prefer, namely combat oriented, cyber warriors.

TX_DM

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« Reply #8 on: (20:20:49/09-13-13) »
TThat is not to say that such a build is not overly specialized, I happen to think it is, but if people enjoy playing that kind of character who are you to tell them that they are "wrong" for doing so? Isn't the objective for each player to have fun, not just by themselves but as a group?

I didn't say anyone was wrong for doing anything, just what I agreed with in the rules and why.

As far as objectives and players and groups go, fun is where you find it, I sincerely hope you find some.

I play combat oriented, cyber warriors.

Rock on you crazy Diamond.

ZeConster

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« Reply #9 on: (20:48:11/09-13-13) »
as in an attempt to keep the phys limit below 13, and hand to hand damage or melee damage below 15p. People still make twink characters at chargen with loopholes and the like and end up with 34 dice pool and 24 phys limits all the time though so, whatevs, whatevs.
While I appreciate hyperbole, 24 is unrealistic: due to the augmentation cap of +4, the highest you could get is 11(15)/6(10)/6(10), for a Physical Limit of 12(17), and at chargen, the max is 11(15)/5(9)/5(9), for a Physical Limit of 11(16), and that requires a Magician to cast a Body increase and overcast a Strength increase. Of course, if you're an adept, you could add an extra +1 to that Physical Limit, but that's still 18 max.

JackVII

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« Reply #10 on: (11:22:27/09-14-13) »
+1 for Indomitable. but the point remains. :)
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T-Hatchet

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« Reply #11 on: (17:24:52/09-16-13) »
+1 for Indomitable. but the point remains. :)
I think you can take Indomitable 3 times for the same limit.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #12 on: (17:31:01/09-16-13) »
Correct, you can stack Indomitable.
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JackVII

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« Reply #13 on: (17:37:18/09-16-13) »
Yup, good catch. I must have been thinking of Improved Potential which was already mentioned. So that's 21 (and hilariously focused).

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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #14 on: (17:40:12/09-16-13) »
Limit isn't really relevant though when you got <2xLimit in dice.
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