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Governments in 2070's

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RHat

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« Reply #105 on: <09-08-13/1931:20> »
Who's borders has not changed since before the Corporate Court?

A fair few, I imagine (most of the events that caused border shifts predate the Court) - and most border shifts I can think of had NOTHING to do with the Corps.  Tír na nÓg, for example, seems to have had its borders since about  2014.
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Black

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« Reply #106 on: <09-08-13/1938:56> »
Who's borders has not changed since before the Corporate Court?

Most countries borders changed well before the CC was even formed....

The VITAS plagues caused A LOT of upheaval.... And what it didn't cause, UGE, goblinization and the awakening did....

The first true show of force by the CC was the arguable Omega Order on ORO/Aztechnology.... And from there their power grew rapidly.
That and the events in France.  But it was power which grew over time and the Omega Order was the first overt sign of power.
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grid_roamer

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« Reply #107 on: <09-08-13/1945:37> »
Who's borders has not changed since before the Corporate Court?

Most countries borders changed well before the CC was even formed....

The VITAS plagues caused A LOT of upheaval.... And what it didn't cause, UGE, goblinization and the awakening did....

The first true show of force by the CC was the arguable Omega Order on ORO/Aztechnology.... And from there their power grew rapidly.

Corporate Courts and the issue of Extraterritoriality are dated initially around 2001.
 Well before VITAS and later events....
« Last Edit: <09-09-13/1905:15> by fenris_mask »

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« Reply #108 on: <09-08-13/1957:33> »
You have to remember, there are a few checks and balances on the Corp Court....

First, you need a majority vote.... Which isn't easy to get unless the vote is on something that will benefit most of the voters.... Which means plans that help ONLY Ares grow and limit other Megas will never get passed.

Second, taking over a country is not in a corporations best interest (look into the current state of affairs of ALL countries.... Heck Sony LOST more money this year then the GDP of the bottom 20 countries!!) Running a country is not the same as running a business, you have different priorities... And they conflict big time!!

••••

However, it IS in the CC's best interest to make sure that countries treat their signatories favorably, while limiting the competion's ability to challenge them. (ie: anyone not a Mega)

So this would include things like recgrognizing extraterritorial powers, fixed corp tax rates, travel and right-of-way protocols, and anything else they can use to make their growth and profits easier.

Their ARE limits to extraterritoriality. First, it extends to ONLY corps that are AA rated and above (and even then, it has to be granted by the CC...) Second, it only applies to THAT corp... Meaning that while Ares has extraterritoriality, Johnson&simmiens (an Ares subsidery) isn't protected. Thirdly, you have to broadcast your extraterritoriality astrally, physically, and digitally.... Which means that secret Ares resarch lab in the barrens IS NOT covered! Lastly, you have NO authority off corp property.... So the moment Ares security steps foot off ares land, they could be breaking local laws just by having a sidearm.... And be arrested/charged! Also, anything that leaves your property that causes damage is your responsibility... So while dumping toxic chemicals is perfectly legal on Ares land... Once those toxins reach UCAS land, Ares is on the hook!
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« Reply #109 on: <09-08-13/2052:18> »
Who's borders has not changed since before the Corporate Court?

Most countries borders changed well before the CC was even formed....

The VITAS plagues caused A LOT of upheaval.... And what it didn't cause, UGE, goblinization and the awakening did....

The first true show of force by the CC was the arguable Omega Order on ORO/Aztechnology.... And from there their power grew rapidly.

Corporate Courts and the issue of Extraterritoritality are dated initially around 2001.
 Well before VITAS and later events....


actually no.
a history of events is below:

1999: a strike causes a food shortage in Manhatten, leading to a Seretech medical waste transport coming under attack by citizens looking for food.... 200 citizens and 20 Seretech employees dead. The US supreme court sides with Seretech and "agrees" that they are with in their rights to hire, train, and use private security (military) forces for the protection of Corporate assets.

2000: Shiawase wins a Supremem court victory allowing them to privately build, own and maintain a nuclear power reactor for their own use.

2001: Shaiwase is granted Extraterritoriality by the US supreme court after a Terra-First! attack on their nuclear station is thwarted by Shaiwase private security.

2010: VITAS 1 outbreak.

2011: the AWAKENING!!! (UGE and magic come back!)

2012: BMW, Ares, Shaiwase, ORO, Keruba, jRj, Mitsuhama form the ICC (inter-corporate council)

2013: the ICC fails to stop a war between ORO and Keruba

2015: Azatlan party comes to power in Mexico. Renames Mexico Aztlan. 

2021: Goblinization!!!

2022: VITAS 2:

2023: Ares Industries, ORO, BMW, JRJ International, Keruba International, Mitsuhama, Shiawase Form the Corporate Court



all this and more is available in the Sixth World Almanac and Corporate guide.
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Sengir

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« Reply #110 on: <09-09-13/1155:21> »
... so ... if I understand you correctly, Sengir, you claim that the RL authors got extraterritoriality wrong for embassies (the permissions and allowances for which are generally considered to be the definition of what it means to be extraterritorial)
In other words, after being told otherwise several times in this thread, you still did not get the fact that embassies (and any other diplomatic mission) are not extraterritorial but merely granted immunity by international conventions?
I'm afraid if you fail at that basic level, there is little I can do to further your understanding...

Silence

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« Reply #111 on: <09-09-13/1209:17> »
Diplomats and their people are given immunity for crimes committed outside the embassy.  An embassy is considered sovereign territory of the government that sponsors it.  That means the Russian Embassy in the US is considered Russian soil, and the US Embassy in Russia is American soil.  That pretty much is the definition of extraterritoriality.
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« Reply #112 on: <09-09-13/1905:56> »
... so ... if I understand you correctly, Sengir, you claim that the RL authors got extraterritoriality wrong for embassies (the permissions and allowances for which are generally considered to be the definition of what it means to be extraterritorial)
In other words, after being told otherwise several times in this thread, you still did not get the fact that embassies (and any other diplomatic mission) are not extraterritorial but merely granted immunity by international conventions?

I'm afraid if you fail at that basic level, there is little I can do to further your understanding...
Hmmm.  I'm going to do what you utterly failed to do, and quote sources.
Quote from: Oxford English Dictionary link=http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/extraterritorial
Extraterritorial (adjective):
  • (of a law or decree) valid outside a country’s territory: an extraterritorial decree of assassination from abroad[/i
  • denoting the freedom of embassy staff from the jurisdiction of the territory of residence: foreign embassies have extraterritorial rights
  • situated outside a country’s territory: extraterritorial industrial zones
Quote from: Merriam-Webster Dictionary link=http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/extraterritoriality
Extraterritoriality (noun): exemption from the application or jurisdiction of local law or tribunals.
Quote from: Wikipedia link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraterritoriality
Extraterritoriality is the state of being exempted from the jurisdiction of local law, usually as the result of diplomatic negotiations. Extraterritoriality can also be applied to physical places, such as foreign embassies, military bases of foreign countries, or offices of the United Nations. The three most common cases recognized today internationally relate to the persons and belongings of foreign heads of state, the persons and belongings of ambassadors and other diplomats, and ships in foreign waters.

Extraterritoriality is often extended to friendly or allied militaries, particularly for the purposes of allowing that military to simply pass through one's territory.

Now, this is common usage.  Your argument resides on the technical definition, which I'll again pull from Wikipedia:
Quote from: Wikipedia link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embassies#Extraterritoriality
Contrary to popular belief, diplomatic missions do not enjoy full extraterritorial status and are not sovereign territory of the represented state.  Rather, the premises of diplomatic missions remain under the jurisdiction of the host state while being afforded special privileges (such as immunity from most local laws) by the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations. Diplomats themselves still retain full diplomatic immunity, and (as an adherent to the Vienna Convention) the host country may not enter the premises of the mission without permission of the represented country. The term "extraterritoriality" is often applied to diplomatic missions, but only in this broader sense.

As the host country may not enter the representing country's embassy without permission, embassies are sometimes used by refugees escaping from either the host country or a third country. For example, North Korean nationals, who would be arrested and deported from China upon discovery, have sought sanctuary at various third-country embassies in China. Once inside the embassy, diplomatic channels can be used to solve the issue and send the refugees to another country.

So yes, you are absolutely correct - going by precise technicality, embassies (meaning the building, i.e. the chancery) are, shall we say, 'common tier' extraterritorial, and not 'precision tier' extraterritorial.  However, the demonstrated meaning of 'extraterritoriality' in SR walks between both tiers - in many instances 'common tier' use, in some the 'precision tier' use of the term.  Many/most SR extraterritorial corporate locations are even still supposed to pay taxes (p. 20 sidebar, Corporate Guide (4e)) into the local government, due to use of infrastructure.  Buuuut ...
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Nath

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« Reply #113 on: <09-09-13/2044:02> »
Extraterritorial really just is an adjective that means "outside the territory". Which has two different and opposed, though sometimes related, uses in legal parlance.

When a country exercises its authority outside its territory, it creates an extraterritorial jurisdiction. When a country treats a part of its territory or a person present on its territory as if it wasn't inside its territory, it grants an extraterritorial privilege. Originally, the latter case was also called "exterritoriality" in the past, but the term fell into disuse.

It is a common misconception that foreign embassies and consulates have extraterritorial privilege. The diplomatic personnel have diplomatic immunity, while the diplomatic missions and vehicles have diplomatic inviolability. That is, the person cannot be arrested or imprisoned, the places and vehicles cannot be searched.
In this day and age, it is not so rare for democratic countries to waive their diplomats' immunity for cases that are not related to their duties, like car accidents.

Diplomatic immunity can practically amount to an extraterritorial privilege in a given situation. When the local authorities don't even start a legal procedure because they know immunity or inviolability will get in their way, they effectively grant an extraterritorial privilege. It is not what the Vienna Convention ask for, but this what the results may be.
Foreign governments and the convention don't require it for a reason: the extraterritorial privilege is a double-edged sword. If you punch someone in the face inside the country, you cannot be charged because you weren't there. But if you get punched, the other person also cannot be charged because you weren't there.

The extraterritorial privilege still exists in some places though: the facilities belonging to international organizations are often granted it. That's the case for the UN or NATO headquarters for instance, or some buildings that belongs to the Catholic Church inside Rome.
Why not just resort to diplomatic immunity and inviolability? For NATO headquarters, it's because military personnel involved in the planning and execution of war operations don't qualify as diplomatic personnel. For the UN, it was to account for diplomats from countries which have no diplomatic relationships with or aren't recognize by the United States.

What prevent these places to be plagued with crime is extraterritoriality... the other one, the extraterritorial jurisdiction. Historically, your typical case is piracy inside international waters. A ship inside international waters is considered an extraterritorial jurisdiction of the country it carries the flag, so pirate crew boarding it can be charged and prosecuted there.
When an US Army officer is charged for murder committed in Iraq or inside the NATO headquarters in Belgium, it establishes an extraterritorial jurisdiction. A lot of countries actually allow themselves to try their citizens for crime they committed abroad. Some also allow themselves to try foreigners for crime they committed against one of their citizens abroad. And there are more disputed cases, like the US charging a Swiss company for dealing with the Iranian government that physically took place in Zurich and Tehran.

So, yes a place can have the extraterritorial privilege and also be an extraterritorial jurisdiction at the same time, and from the same country (in the case of a crime committed inside the UN headquarters for instance, it is considered as being outside US territory, but subject to US laws).

Extraterritorial jurisdiction are considered on a case by case basis. If you take a look at those "anecdotal evidences" that jurists usually call "precedents", the Fourth Circuit ruled that an US embassy is an extraterritorial jurisdiction for manslaughter in United States versus Erdos, but the Supreme Court ruled that an US embassy was not for a civilian lawsuit against a foreign state in Persinger versus Islamic Republic of Iran.
An US embassy is not actual US territory, it is a "special territorial jurisdiction of the United States". Some US laws apply, some don't, some do differently (in US v. Erdos, much of the debate was about where the trial should take place for instance). But this is because the US legal systems allow extraterritorial jurisdiction. The Russian may have a different opinion on what happens inside their embassies. Depending on the local practice of law, some other countries may rule extraterritorial jurisdiction as legally impossible, and their embassies thus effectively are lawless zones.

More important, things may be different as well in Shadowrun, which as a game tend to be closer to "Hollywood reality" than "legal reality". The foreign diplomat getting away with murder is a staple afterall.

Tzeentch

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« Reply #114 on: <09-09-13/2240:42> »
The Corporate Court extraterritoriality is very similar to the diplomatic version. Just swap "Vienna Convention" with "Corporate Court" and you're pretty good to go. The land still belongs to the country, but special concessions are allowed.

However, keep in mind that the Shadowrun writers believed in the cinematic version of extraterritoriality, in which the consulate facilities are the sovereign territory of the country in question. See Corporate Shadowfiles, p. 19. There's been riders and exemptions attached to this over time (including within Corporate Shadowfiles) so you are free to interpret this as you want -- you'll probably be right given the various book descriptions :)

BTW I suggest turning your brain off for the explanation of how this all came about though. It makes my brain hurt reading the justification for the Shiawase decisions.

Sengir

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« Reply #115 on: <09-10-13/1812:40> »
Hmmm.  I'm going to do what you utterly failed to do, and quote sources.
Always a good idea if you claim something exists...

Quote
However, the demonstrated meaning of 'extraterritoriality' in SR walks between both tiers - in many instances 'common tier' use, in some the 'precision tier' use of the term.  Many/most SR extraterritorial corporate locations are even still supposed to pay taxes (p. 20 sidebar, Corporate Guide (4e)) into the local government, due to use of infrastructure.  Buuuut ...
The Vienna Conventions aka. your "common tier", include a lot of restrictions. You might descibe it as "extraterritoriality except for being not really extraterritorial and the following...". So if what SR meant with "extraterritoriality" was indeed a combination between "really extraterritorial" and "immunity by treaty", some of those restrictions should be present. Such as:
- New head of mission has to be accepted by host nation
- Citizens of the host nation may only become members of the mission if the host nation agrees
- People may be declared persona non grata, realations may be severed entirely
- "The receiving State is under a special duty to take all appropriate steps to protect the premises of the mission against any intrusion or damage". I'd say the whole point of SR extraterritoriality was that corps should care for their own security
- "the mission may install and use a wireless transmitter only with the consent of the receiving State".
- No commercial activity

As far as taxes are concerned, what CG describes sounds more like direct payment for services delivered than what you and I pay as taxes, But anyway, using taxes as an argument why megacorps are like embassies and not like exclaves does not work for a simple reason: Embassies are exempt from taxation and customs for anything related to their official purposes (which for a megacorp would obviously be "make money")..

grid_roamer

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« Reply #116 on: <09-10-13/2000:13> »
Make money, also printing money then pay taxes with said monies....


Black

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« Reply #117 on: <09-10-13/2031:45> »
Make money, also printing money then pay taxes with said monies....
Printing money is always a bad idea unless your plan is to devalue your debt.

Corps still pay taxes, its just minimised.  Not too dissimilar to modern day.  They just have more tools at reducing their exposure to taxes.
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« Reply #118 on: <09-11-13/0009:21> »
Make money, also printing money then pay taxes with said monies....
Printing money is always a bad idea unless your plan is to devalue your debt.

Corps still pay taxes, its just minimised.  Not too dissimilar to modern day.  They just have more tools at reducing their exposure to taxes.

Yep, just like governments have ways of getting said money (VAT, Sin, Excise, PF, etc taxes)
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Crunch

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« Reply #119 on: <09-11-13/0120:32> »
Make money, also printing money then pay taxes with said monies....
Printing money is always a bad idea unless your plan is to devalue your debt.

Corps still pay taxes, its just minimised.  Not too dissimilar to modern day.  They just have more tools at reducing their exposure to taxes.

Money supply is a significantly more complex issue than that.