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Suprathyroid incompatible with... damn near everything useful?

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Xenon

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« Reply #15 on: <09-10-13/0213:35> »
Anyone tried to put together a cross-reference matrix of what magic/power/bioware/cyberware that do stack with what
- and what it is incompatible with?

the adept power improved reflexes for example seem to be incompatible with augmentations/enhancements to initiative (and according to p.159 initiative is based on three factors, initiative attribute, initiative score and initiative dice), but it does not mention reaction augmentations/enhancements - so it seem as if you can stack improved reaction attribute with improved reactions physical attribute power for the purpose of calculating your reaction pool for pilot skills and defense rolls during combat etc, but not when you use reaction to calculate your initiative attribute as initiative attribute is one of the three parts of initiative.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #16 on: <09-10-13/0444:20> »
Keep in mind two things:
1: If one side is incompatible, both are.
2: It can be argued that augmentations mean Initiative Attribute or Initiative Dice. It's not perfectly clear how Reaction boosts and Initiative boosts combine.

Honestly, I think it's better to wait for some things to be cleared up through errata/FAQ before we get into the heavy debates.
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Xenon

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« Reply #17 on: <09-10-13/0521:39> »
i made a thread :)
for now i just copy pasta text that make them incompatible. adding some of my own thoughts and reflections in the second post. 3rd will be a matrix or a table with everything, but i wait with that until i can get some input.

http://forums.shadowruntabletop.com/index.php?topic=12756.0

The definition of Initiative is pretty straight forward. You find it on p.159 under the chapter called "Initiative"
"Initiative is based on three factors: Initiative Attribute, Initiative Score, and Initiative Dice."

So anything that affect initiative attribute, initiative score or initiative dice also affect initiative. or reverse; something that is incompatible with enhancements to initiative is also incompatible with enhancements to initiative attribute, initiative score and initiative dice.
« Last Edit: <09-10-13/0523:24> by Xenon »

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #18 on: <09-10-13/0535:46> »
What Initiative is is straight forward, yes. There is however a debate on which of the four different terms are meant when Augmentations talk about being incompatible with other boosts to Initiative, and whether boosts to your Attributes are incompatible with boosts directly to Initiative. You are fully aware of these debates and how often things were written badly, so please don't pretend otherwise. It is one thing to have a clear opinion, it is an entirely different thing to pretend there is no such controversion.
« Last Edit: <09-10-13/0538:48> by Michael Chandra »
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Xenon

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« Reply #19 on: <09-10-13/0610:59> »
the term Initiative is well defined as being all three factors of Initiative Attribute, Initiative Score, and Initiative Dice. That part is not really something that can be debated, is it...? (well, everything can be debated i guess - but at least that part is very straight forward and very hard to read in any other way).

that single line of text make it rather hard to argue that for example an enhancement to initiative score would be compatible with an enhancement that is incompatible with enhancements to initiative.

it also make it very hard to argue that an enhancement to intuition which is part of the initiative attribute would be compatible with an enhancement that is incompatible with enhancements to initiative (for the sole purpose of calculating the initiative attribute - it is of course still compatible with an enhancement to intuition for the purpose of calculating the pool for a defense test or whatever that does not have anything to do with the initiative attribute, initiative score or the initiative dice).

just because two enhancements are incompatible does not mean you can't acquire them both. incompatible just mean you have to select when and where you want to use one or the other enhancement.

...for example having wired reflexes 1 and improved intuition spell would be incompatible for the purpose of calculating initiative attribute which is part of initiative, but would be compatible when using intuition for calculating the pool for a defense test. being in astral projection would possible give you on average a higher initiative score if you depend on the intuition spell enhancement rather than on the wired reflex enhancement (since the reaction attribute part of wired reflexes is not used to calculate initiative attribute when in astral space and the intuition attribute is counted twice when you calculate initiative attribute when in astral space - which might overshadow the extra initiative dice you would get from wired reflexes).
...while an enhancement to reaction would be incompatible with wired reflexes for all purposes, not just for calculating the initiative attribute (except if the enhancement to reaction is the reaction enhancer cyberware and they are both set to wireless ON).

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #20 on: <09-10-13/0622:38> »
There was a debate on this elsewhere. You'll want to actually hold this debate there, or in its own topic.

My point was simple: There are several controversial parts of the rules, partially caused by artefacts and partially by poor phrasing. Before we get into massive analysis, it's better to actually await the errata and FAQ. THEN we can start debating with proper facts.

If you think the debates shouldn't wait, that's fine. But the least you could do is acknowledge my request and my clear intent to not cause a heavy debate, rather than ignoring the request and starting a debate in the wrong place.
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Xenon

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Magnaric

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« Reply #22 on: <09-10-13/0954:50> »
So, I was making an Augmentation wishlist the other day, and have read through this thread thoroughly. The other thread pertains to SR5, however...is the debate here focused on SR5 as well(which I don;t have yet), or SR4? It should be noted that I'm interested in finding out about compatibility of the Superthyroid and/or Synaptic Booster in SR4 with other enhancements, and I thought that was what most of the debate here was.
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Xenon

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« Reply #23 on: <09-12-13/1012:22> »
i personally talked from a SR5 perspective. The link in the post above yours is about SR5 as well...