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Insane Bulletproof Builds?

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Volomon

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« on: (03:25:14/08-17-13) »
Ok I got a player whos got this cybered up warrior that rolling 30+ on damage resistance.  It's kind of crazy.  The hard part is that the armor is pretty insane 12 armor jacket + orthoskin (3) + bone lacing (3) + 12 body + ect,.
It seem 100% legit.  Most of the time hes rolling around 34ish.  He was rolling higher till I noticed his body was incorrect.

I don't know look at his sheet.

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=632400

Tell me what his resistance should be and what his dodge should be because they are looking way to powerful for a new character.  I don't care as long as it's legit I can kill him other ways but the game seems flawed if a character can come out this powerful from creation.
« Last Edit: (03:31:45/08-17-13) by Volomon »

Ryo

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« Reply #1 on: (03:36:37/08-17-13) »
He's cheating. A lot.

Suprathyroid gland does not have ratings, and is 20F. It isn't available at creation.

Titanium Bonelacing is 16R, also not available at creation, unless he gets it used. Which he didn't.

Orthoskin 4 would also be 16R, also not available at creation. You're not allowed to exceed 12.

And even if those were legal, you can't exceed +4 to any stat.  He's claiming +6 to Body and Reaction, both not legal.

With Reaction Enhancers 2, he should be rolling Reaction 7 + Intuition 5 on defense tests, for 12 dice.

With Body 8, + Armor Jacket 12, + Orthoskin 3 + Bonelacing 2, he should be rolling 25 dice on damage soak.

I'm also extremely dubious of his priorities. A rating 3 suprathyroid gland alone, if such a thing even existed, would be 420,000 nuyen, which would require Resources A. Yet he also seems to have 10 skill group points, which would require Skills A, and he spent at least 20 points on Attributes, which is B, and he needs at least C metatype to be an Ork.
« Last Edit: (03:50:46/08-17-13) by Ryo »

RHat

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« Reply #2 on: (03:58:43/08-17-13) »
With Body 8, + Armor Jacket 12, + Orthoskin 3 + Bonelacing 2, he should be rolling 25 dice on damage soak.

27 - Bone Lacing adds both Body (for damage resistance ONLY, it is not a real Body augmentation) and armour.  He could use a Ballistic Shield and Helmet to get up to 35, though.

The Pain Editor is also too high on Availability, which means that his tiny Stun track is gonna screw him right over.

Amusingly, he's raised his attributes by 22 - and as he doesn't have the Karma (checked his qualities count, he'd only have had 25 to spend) to explain this, he either spent 2 too many or 2 too few.

Really, even with all this rules breaking, the guy ends up being a hilarious one-trick pony - the very moment you get him outside of his main area, he's ROYALLY screwed, especially given his Mental and Social limits of 3 and 2.  Once he gets brought down to rules legality, this actually ends up being a great example of how not to build a Shadowrun character.
« Last Edit: (04:06:57/08-17-13) by RHat »
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #3 on: (06:33:11/08-17-13) »
The Pain Editor is also too high on Availability, which means that his tiny Stun track is gonna screw him right over.
And he won't be able to get it Used, since you cannot get Cultured Bioware Used.

Reaction Enhancers, by the way, won't stack with Suprathyroid gland. They do not stack with ANYTHING except Wireless-enabled (and thus hackable) Wired Reflexes.

Wait, does he have 22/10 as skills? That's not right, it's either 46/10 or 22/0.

His attributes are correct, actually. An Ork starts with 13 points, he's at 33 so he spent 20.

I see he put 15 karma into Contacts, and +25/-25 in Qualities, so he'd only have 10 karma left.

The gland would be 420k, Orthoskin 24k, Reaction Enhancers 26k, Pain Editor 48k, Titanium Lacing 30k, ~15k in other gear (no fake SIN, eh?), that's >560k where the maximum is 470 (450 + 10 karma).

By the way: Bone Lacing does NOT raise your Body. It merely raises your Body for Damage soaking.

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So let's see: He's Magic E, Skills D with 10 illegal skillgroup points, Race C with 1 Edge too little (Ork(0) means 1 Edge), Attributes B, Resources A +10 karma with 100k spent too much.
On top of that he's violating Augmentation Stacking, Availability, Rating and Augmented Maximum.


Corrected to Aluminium Lacing, Used Orthoskin 4, 8 Body without any boosts whatsoever: He'd have 12+4+2 Armor, 8 Body and +2+1 soak dice, for a total of a mere 29 soak dice. Honestly, I consider that no big deal whatsoever, given how with Used Orthoskin 4 and Used Bone Density Augmentation 4 he'd have had the same amount. And yes, I'm not suggesting he takes Used Titanium Lacing because that drains waaaay too much essence. And not even a helmet? What insanity is that?

Anyway, if he changes himself to ~30 soak dice, correct far-weaker stats and loses all those illegal skillgroups, he'll be really weak in the skill department and still get hurt with ease the second someone brings in a bigger gun. An Alpha with APDS ammo would do an average 4 damage and despite all that armor it will still do Physical Damage. (12 vs 18-6 is a tie, Physical Damage.)

By the way, if he ever starts stacking up even more armor without having a Pain Editor: Use Explosive Ammo, not APDS. If he has a helmet for 20 armor, then an Alpha's 11/-2 +1/-1 = 12/-3. It'd take 5 net hits to do physical damage, while with APDS he might take Physical (3+ NH) and might take Stun. You want to focus the damage on 1 damage track, so if he has a helmet Explosive ammo will be far better at knocking him unconscious.
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Volomon

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« Reply #4 on: (15:28:43/08-17-13) »
Thanks guys I haven't had a chance to fully memorize all of SR5 yet and am not familiar with 4th either I've only played 1-3.

RHat

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« Reply #5 on: (18:00:03/08-17-13) »
No problem.  "Bulletproof" is a seriously difficult thing to pull off right now due to the damage codes in SR5 (they've been raised now compared to SR4, thoguh as I understand it SR3 used a completely different damage system).  Future supplements may open further armour options, but given the restriction on +armor items, it's still a very difficult thing to do.
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Pyromaster13

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« Reply #6 on: (18:18:28/08-17-13) »
Suprathyroid gland doesn't come in ratings... where is this cheese coming from?

SoulGambit

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« Reply #7 on: (03:37:04/08-18-13) »
Pffft. 30+ Armor is entirely possible. That's a player that wants to play the juggernaut. The first trick is to shoot them with bullets--lots of bullets. They want to be immortal, so let them feel that rush. Then when you need to mix things up, incorporate magic, poison, or critter powers that don't care about armor. Well, that's how you handle legit builds. This guy... needs to learn the rules first.

Drakestar

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« Reply #8 on: (07:47:56/08-18-13) »
As it was pointed out by RHat, it is impossible to have pain editor and suprathyroid gland at chargen. This character really broke the rules angnd You should talk with your player about rebulding this character accordig to the rules from the core rulebook.

I think the quickest way to put this guy down would be direct combat spells like manabolt. Or even death touch. With only 2 willpower he has only two dices to resist the damage. Also use elemental damage. Fire based spell have AP rating equal to spell's force. Electrical damage is also good because it decreases initiative score.

In my party we have a player with 25 to 31 soak dices. He can soak alot of damage, but he is nowhere near invincible. Elemental damage, apds and direct combat spells still pose a serious threat to him.

ZeConster

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« Reply #9 on: (07:56:13/08-18-13) »
Pffft. 30+ Armor is entirely possible. That's a player that wants to play the juggernaut. The first trick is to shoot them with bullets--lots of bullets. They want to be immortal, so let them feel that rush. Then when you need to mix things up, incorporate magic, poison, or critter powers that don't care about armor. Well, that's how you handle legit builds. This guy... needs to learn the rules first.
I'd just like to point out there is an actual Tank archetype in the book (which fluff describes as the group's actual tank), which means the SR5 writers consider such a build quite valid.

SoulGambit

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« Reply #10 on: (22:21:19/08-18-13) »
Definitely. That's why I recommend shooting the PC with bullets on occasion, so they feel like their near immortality matters. The worst thing you can do against a PC with a gimmick like that is have all enemies suddenly bypass the gimmick. When you need to challenge that PC or downplay his advantages, swap to something that bypasses his armor, et cetera. When you want him to particularly shine, let him stand against a hail of bullets, hold the door so the rest of the team can escape, or something else. Oh, attacks which lower initiative are absolute gold against tanks. Electricity-based attacks and that called shot option work just fine.

I think at the moment you can, inside two runs + whatever is required to get a Pain Editor, nab 36 Armor (+6 vs Electricity, +6 vs Fire, +3 vs Cold, Chemical Seal/Environmental Adaptation), Body 5, Willpower 5 (6), Magic Resistance 4, Toxin Extractor 6, Platelet Factory, Defense Pool of 14 and judicious application of Slap Patches.
« Last Edit: (22:45:43/08-18-13) by SoulGambit »

lurkeroutthere

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« Reply #11 on: (12:57:16/08-19-13) »
ADPS goes a long way to at least mitigating some of the bulletproof effect without completely bypassing it. It honestly should be the norm on any moderately serious opposition (so anything above rent-a-cop level guards and gangers, and even some gangs should be rolling ADPS).

The biggest problem a "tank" build will run into is the dmaage conver

On my current missiosn character i'm typically looking at 27 dice to resist damage although this is post character gen and after significant nuyen investment. If you are willing to forgo initiative boosters you could presumably start with a 11 Armor, +3 Body Resistance,  plus whatever they are wearing.

The biggest concern for a "tank" is always going to be the damage conversion rules making a pain editor pretty much a priority acquisition.
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #12 on: (13:48:56/08-19-13) »
Don't use APDS, use Explosive ammo. Less valuable to the players for the same damage against them.
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thinklibertarian

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« Reply #13 on: (17:48:20/08-19-13) »
The archetype Tank rolls 38 dice to resist damage:

Body 10 + aluminum bone lacing 2 + toughness 1 = effective Body 13

Armor Jacket 12 + helmet 2 + shield 6 + dermal plating 2 + aluminum bone lacing 2 + troll 1 = Armor 25

But hey, that's his defining characteristic. His offensive skills (thanks to Agility 2) are 8 or less dice.