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"So you wana dance with the devil.

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a very angery werefox

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« on: (01:47:05/08-15-13) »
well i had some really bold or dumb players last few games i ran. in one game they got hired to steal a transgenic retro vires that culd turn peopl in to animal hybreds . everthing was going fine till they sayed" lets grab random stuff in the case we got and screw the mr jonhson.  o boy did next game they learn that was bad idea when they got attacked in there home by a strike team. they lived but insted of contacting that jonhson an beging forgiveness they track him down an " beat the holy hell out of him. this gos  O so well that they end up savegely beaten and droped off at a park thats infested with vampires in the bad part of town. there basicly a few boxies of hp left. and  then vampires show up. few mins later an 3 dead vamps an a aliens like despert foot chase later they get to safety. near dead they call a street doc to patch them up and yup you might have seen this comeing but they refuss to pay the street doc his fair 15k nuyen for saveing them from bleeding to death. the doc calls for his 2 troll friends and tells them "pay up or you all can  know what a coma feels like. shockingly they pay. they had earnd a alraming 8 notoriety for these acts. they had to roll new guys cuss no one wold hire them agin. the players were vet shadowrun players but just tryed to cheat there jonhson. lesson learnd.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #1 on: (01:59:36/08-15-13) »
Consequences for actions is one thing, but from that story you took it way too far. Seriously, so many vampires when that badly wounded that there were more left after taking down three of them? That sounds like you were out to slaughter their characters like sheep. And fifteen thousand to patch them up? Ridiculous.
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a very angery werefox

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« Reply #2 on: (02:21:07/08-15-13) »
they killed 3 outa 4 in 1 turn( thank you bone laceing) they ran only when they noticed they where in the part of town no one comes out of alive. an yeh when you beat the holy hell outa a sedder krrupa  higher up . word gets out that no one wants to help you. 3k each seemed fair they were at 1 or 2 hp and 1 guy was overflow. i didint try to kill them. they made biger then life mistakes. in 14 years this was first time id ever seen something like this. i had to think they wold affter the strike team ask the jonhson how they can make things right. insted they gang beat him inforont of his 5 year old girl. hardly nice.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #3 on: (02:43:25/08-15-13) »
Four Vampires?! And you say you weren't trying to kill them? Vampires are ludicrous. They got VERY lucky that they were able to take any down.
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a very angery werefox

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« Reply #4 on: (03:02:24/08-15-13) »
they OHK 2 of them. gang beat the 3rd and ran from the 4th . they did woress on the strike team. there charcters wernt new. one guy once ohk a troll in juggernut armor with a called shot punch to the head. thes guys wernt newbie runners. noting was to dangers at the point they did this . they got dumped in the park becus they got jump by cyberd up doc wagon rescue team they didint see comeing.

Magnaric

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« Reply #5 on: (11:30:23/08-15-13) »
Honestly, this sounds like a really bad situation from the start. There might be more to this, but this is essentially what I took away from all this.

- The players have been playing these characters for a good while and had an overdeveloped sense of invincibility.
- As the GM you felt the need to maybe show them that no matter how powerful they think they are, there are always bigger fish.
- The players made a colossally bad decision in trying to cheat their Mr Johnson.
- The Mr Johnson(unknown to them working for a huge megacorp) responds by sending a squad to "furiously negotiate" with them.

This is where it starts to get really messed up, and sounds more than a little personal to me. You had a beautiful opportunity to make the Mr Johnson seem mysteriously sinister. As in, he could have sent them a message along the lines of "I know what you did, where you are, and I can completely erase you, but I'll let you learn from this mistake if you return the goods". Throw in some personal details to show that he has huge resources and is NOT joking around, and they would have had a chance to avoid the clusterfuck that happened. However, sending a strike team against the players in response for an action of theirs really sends the message that you're trying to punish them.

Beating up the Mr Johnson was dumb. Defeating the strike team is enough of a message that they are experienced and formidable runners. Plus it would have put them in a good strong position to negotiate with Mr Johnson. But the choice they made was dumb. I agree there.

However, I have to agree with All4BigGuns here, dropping them in a park when they are 1 breath away from dying, that happens to be "infested" with vampires(your word) is a massive dick move. That is basically saying "I am going to try to kill your characters". The GM SHOULD NEVER play against the players. If they fuck up, react appropriately and feel free to play it out in character as whatever the HTR team/Mr Johnson/Megacorp/LoneStar/etc would realistically do. However, actually trying to kill your players(and I do not for one moment believe you didn't expect at least some of them to die) just to teach them a lesson is a dick move.

Lastly, the Street Doc charging that much to heal them is a bit steep. Could be projecting, but it seems that he had an antagonistic attitude to start with, when in reality he should have been entirely neutral unless he was connected to Mr Johnson.

Anyways, /end criticism. Just seems that your players were arrogant, and you unfortunately reacted in what can easily come across as a petty way, trying to punish the players and not the characters. But that's just how I see it.
"Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything."
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All4BigGuns

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« Reply #6 on: (12:31:19/08-15-13) »
Honestly, this sounds like a really bad situation from the start. There might be more to this, but this is essentially what I took away from all this.

- The players have been playing these characters for a good while and had an overdeveloped sense of invincibility.
- As the GM you felt the need to maybe show them that no matter how powerful they think they are, there are always bigger fish.
- The players made a colossally bad decision in trying to cheat their Mr Johnson.
- The Mr Johnson(unknown to them working for a huge megacorp) responds by sending a squad to "furiously negotiate" with them.

This is where it starts to get really messed up, and sounds more than a little personal to me. You had a beautiful opportunity to make the Mr Johnson seem mysteriously sinister. As in, he could have sent them a message along the lines of "I know what you did, where you are, and I can completely erase you, but I'll let you learn from this mistake if you return the goods". Throw in some personal details to show that he has huge resources and is NOT joking around, and they would have had a chance to avoid the clusterfuck that happened. However, sending a strike team against the players in response for an action of theirs really sends the message that you're trying to punish them.

Beating up the Mr Johnson was dumb. Defeating the strike team is enough of a message that they are experienced and formidable runners. Plus it would have put them in a good strong position to negotiate with Mr Johnson. But the choice they made was dumb. I agree there.

However, I have to agree with All4BigGuns here, dropping them in a park when they are 1 breath away from dying, that happens to be "infested" with vampires(your word) is a massive dick move. That is basically saying "I am going to try to kill your characters". The GM SHOULD NEVER play against the players. If they fuck up, react appropriately and feel free to play it out in character as whatever the HTR team/Mr Johnson/Megacorp/LoneStar/etc would realistically do. However, actually trying to kill your players(and I do not for one moment believe you didn't expect at least some of them to die) just to teach them a lesson is a dick move.

Lastly, the Street Doc charging that much to heal them is a bit steep. Could be projecting, but it seems that he had an antagonistic attitude to start with, when in reality he should have been entirely neutral unless he was connected to Mr Johnson.

Anyways, /end criticism. Just seems that your players were arrogant, and you unfortunately reacted in what can easily come across as a petty way, trying to punish the players and not the characters. But that's just how I see it.

**applauds**
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Crunch

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« Reply #7 on: (12:34:22/08-15-13) »
Yeah I think that's about the size of it.

Getting into escalation with players is almost never a good idea for a GM.

a very angery werefox

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« Reply #8 on: (13:03:38/08-15-13) »
cant and wont sugercoat this . they had a godcomplex after 9 months of biger then life runnnsI.E stealing the key to terraform mars" stoping shadow houes " the evil remints of the old US goverments plans ues a deadly evil enitity know as the prince of ruinen form enslaveing mankind. the list gos on. they in the midle of the run affter killing alot of testsubjects that broke free in the lab sayed i qoute "F THIS  this is geting somewath hard and we are only on lvl 6 of a 15 floor deep lab" lets just put coke a cola in a test tube an cash out" THERE WORDS.  maybe vampiers was a dick move but still lived and tryed to cheat a street doc that knew he was risking his life to help these peopl with deathwarrents out on them. the 8 bad rep they got was fair. in 14 years this was the most insane 2 games i ever ran.if i soundid like i enjoyed bringing them down im sorry.im only humen lesson learned

Crunch

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« Reply #9 on: (13:08:10/08-15-13) »
There's nothing wrong with ramping up challenges, or having the player's actions have consequences. But (and maybe there's a language barrier that's making it hard to get nuance) it seems like you just threw the vampires in at the last minute.

It sounds like the players are making some questionable choices and might need to get smacked down a bit, but you can't let that put you in a position where you start to make unfair decisions.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #10 on: (13:15:12/08-15-13) »
cant and wont sugercoat this . they had a godcomplex after 9 months of biger then life runnnsI.E stealing the key to terraform mars" stoping shadow houes " the evil remints of the old US goverments plans ues a deadly evil enitity know as the prince of ruinen form enslaveing mankind. the list gos on. they in the midle of the run affter killing alot of testsubjects that broke free in the lab sayed i qoute "F THIS  this is geting somewath hard and we are only on lvl 6 of a 15 floor deep lab" lets just put coke a cola in a test tube an cash out" THERE WORDS.  maybe vampiers was a dick move but still lived and tryed to cheat a street doc that knew he was risking his life to help these peopl with deathwarrents out on them. the 8 bad rep they got was fair. in 14 years this was the most insane 2 games i ever ran.if i soundid like i enjoyed bringing them down im sorry.im only humen lesson learned

Key word Street doc. 1,000 per runner would've been about the most that would really have been acceptable as a charge for such an individual. Now had they taken a risk and gone to the better facility that is Seattle General, then 3,000 might have been more palatable (especially since they could just pay that off in installments). Speaking of which, the whole "pay me 15 grand now or face beat down by these two trolls" was out of line. Even the street doc should have accepted installment payments.
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a very angery werefox

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« Reply #11 on: (13:27:36/08-15-13) »
yeah im still learning to get better at typing( speak english fine its writeing and typing im bit iffy on .i mean the breaking point was beating the mr jonhson up with steal rebar infront of a 5 year old girl. think it went south right then an there. i guess ive as a player never once crossed my mind to screw a mr jonhson . ive up to that point belived everone trys atlest  try to have some tad bit of respect for the guy that pays there bills. go figuer that one day i see a naster side of running the shadows. in a rpg there shude be  no right wrong way to play. guess they just got careless.  like burk in aliens we both made bad calls.

a very angery werefox

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« Reply #12 on: (13:40:19/08-15-13) »
they had a " kill on sight order out on them. if they went there theyed be dead in a hour. and 2 troll bodygurds arnt like out of question if the doc knows A. shoot to kill order out on them B. deadly area of the city. the players flat out refuessd to pay in ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM. bassicly they where gon kill the doc and be on there marry way. till the trolls got out of the van. these guys in the span of 2 games became the scum of the earth. hardly worth sheding a tear for them.

All4BigGuns

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« Reply #13 on: (13:42:44/08-15-13) »
they had a " kill on sight order out on them. if they went there theyed be dead in a hour. and 2 troll bodygurds arnt like out of question if the doc knows A. shoot to kill order out on them B. deadly area of the city. the players flat out refuessd to pay in ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM. bassicly they where gon kill the doc and be on there marry way. till the trolls got out of the van. these guys in the span of 2 games became the scum of the earth. hardly worth sheding a tear for them.

Or maybe they heard the ridiculous bill for a street doc and were just like "well screw you buddy, gouging us like that". I'd probably have a character get rather agitated with him for such a gross overcharge.

And if he knew there was a "kill on sight" order on them, then he should know that these are very bad people that he does not want to frag with.
« Last Edit: (13:44:24/08-15-13) by All4BigGuns »
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Crunch

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« Reply #14 on: (13:44:12/08-15-13) »
My first suggestion would be to take a deep breath and a step back. It sounds like you made an emotional decision in the heat of the moment. That''s fine.

The first thing I would do is have a talk with your players. Explain what you see the in universe results of this kind of behavior and ask if that's the kind of game they want to play. Also an apology for the way the last session ended might be in order.

Then, if they - understanding the consequences- decide to go ahead, run those sessions as fairly as you can.

A runner team that beats a Mr. Johnson with a metal rod after a run is going to get there fixer in big enough trouble that he'll never deal with them again - the fixer might even take action against them.

Likewise having a rep for stiffing street docs will at the least make the relatively small community of docs, armorers, forgers and support personnel that exist in the shadows reluctant to work with your runners at all. At the least anyone else dealing with your runners is going to charge a premium for paying for the extra security needed to insure that they get paid for their work.

Then there's the Johnson. Who was he working for? The average Johnson is an employee of a megacorp in the security department and he's probably going to have pretty strong feelings about getting robbed and beaten by employees.

In the worst case the runners could find themselves targeted by a running team hired by the fixer to avenge the slight to his reputation, a corporate hit team backed up by surveilance and magical support that the runners can only dream about and cut off from the bulk of their contacts because of their bad rep for stiffing the help.

The important thing though is to run the sessions fairly, and if the runners dodge the hit team or take out the opposing run team good job to them, The corp won't run out of guys and they're still burned with their contacts.

At all costs you HAVE to avoid an us against him mentality.