[SoulGambit]

Oh, huh. That means Adepts should spend an Essence on a cyberarm for the +3 Strength and Spurs.

[Crunch]

Maybe. That does reduce the number of Foci they can use or bond, which with Qi Foci is actually useful for an adept. and it's a full PP lost. It MIGHT be a good move in some builds, and with some GMs, but I don't think its as automatic as, say, muscle toner was in 4E.

[Mäx]

Muscle toner and aug are still best use for a powerpoint on an unarmed adept if you have the nuyen.

[Crunch]

The increased cost makes that trade off much less appealing, especially if it results in having to increase resources as a priority.

[firebug]

I agree with Crunch that it seems like too early of a reaction.  Especially considering getting 10,000¥ a runner in SR5 as payment per job isn't uncommon judging by the guidelines on page 376.  I'm almost shocked at how much higher the suggested pay is compared to the paltry sums everyone suggested for SR4 on these forums.  Plus the way it works now, street samurai don't feel like they need as much 'ware to actually be capable in combat.  But you know how it is...  Everyone is complaining that each archetype has suddenly become less powerful.

[Crunch]

I think the impact of higher cash awards and Samurai having more viable karma options to upgrade their core skill set is going to be a surprise to some people.

[firebug]

I agree.  Though I admit that I played SR4 for less than a year, I did make several characters for other people to use (because I ran games for new players every other month).  Looking at my street samurai characters, when I was done, they had no clear progression path.  Sure they could upgrade some of their 'ware to beta, and maybe fit in another augmentation or two, but nearly all of them were at augmentation cap for the attributes they cared about (usually agility, sometimes strength), had loads of armor, a pain-editor, and the few skills they used at 5 or 6 already.  Beyond upping their skills to give them all of 2 dice on say, Running, they were prettymuch totally complete.  It's why I got into TM's instead of hackers.  Now with skill caps at 12 and no way or need to start the game absolutely bogged down with 'ware, it looks like they have as much if not more room to grow than the traditional "karma-hungry" archetypes.

[Mäx]

I agree with Crunch that it seems like too early of a reaction.  Especially considering getting 10,000¥ a runner in SR5 as payment per job isn't uncommon judging by the guidelines on page 376.  I'm almost shocked at how much higher the suggested pay is compared to the paltry sums everyone suggested for SR4 on these forums.

10k is chump change for a street sam.
At 10k a run you need:
22 runs upgrade to wired 3(if you could instal one at standard grade, witch you really can't)
14 runs for Suprathyroid gland
13 runs for either muscle aug or toner 4
10 runs for muscle replacement 4(but you most likely once again can't instal standard grade)
29 runs for synaptic 3

And thats without taking account all the other expenses like lifestyle,ammo etc.

[Crunch]

Yes. It will take some time to get extreme high end gear, just as it will take some time for any character to get to the stuff at the top of the pyramid.

[All4BigGuns]

I agree with Crunch that it seems like too early of a reaction.  Especially considering getting 10,000¥ a runner in SR5 as payment per job isn't uncommon judging by the guidelines on page 376.  I'm almost shocked at how much higher the suggested pay is compared to the paltry sums everyone suggested for SR4 on these forums.

10k is chump change for a street sam.
At 10k a run you need:
22 runs upgrade to wired 3(if you could instal one at standard grade, witch you really can't)
14 runs for Suprathyroid gland
13 runs for either muscle aug or toner 4
10 runs for muscle replacement 4(but you most likely once again can't instal standard grade)
29 runs for synaptic 3

And thats without taking account all the other expenses like lifestyle,ammo etc.

And god forbid you start looking at grades higher than standard. Double that number of runs for Delta (assuming it isn't as bad as it used to be with it basically requiring fiat to access).

Yes. It will take some time to get extreme high end gear, just as it will take some time for any character to get to the stuff at the top of the pyramid.

Taking into account expenses, it should take about 4, maybe 5, runs to upgrade a single implant or other piece of gear at most. Having to play a single character for a year or two before advancing 1 implant is utterly ridiculous.

[Crunch]

But there are plenty of implants you can get in thos 4 or 5 runs, just not the handful of max level and expensive ones Max listed.

[All4BigGuns]

And not many of those are going to be all that useful for the Street Sam in most circumstances and only really good for a small handful of character concepts as well.

[Crunch]

Samurai are less dependent on their implants in general in this edition, and which implants they decide to get is going to be more individual and more tailored to the Sam.

The lack of a clear cookie cutter set of cyber seems like a good thing to me, and the cost is part of that process.

And actually, there are plenty of implants that are both affordable and useful, they're not as clearly dominant as Muscle Toner or wired was in 4E, but I don't see a lack of options now, and I expect the list to grow as the expansion books come out.

[firebug]

You misunderstood my point.  10,000 is not "the average" run.  If your run has one person in it with a 12 dice pool (as in, someone who presents an actual challenge) then you're getting 10k minimum.  It is almost the starting pay for most shadowrunners.  Or someone with 8 dice but they outnumber you 3-1 (and 8 dice is just a random ganger, which your combat-capable players should be able to cut down in swathes).

I'm not saying the price skyrockets once you're past that, but it's not unfair to expect to make more than that after your first couple runs.

But there are plenty of implants you can get in thos 4 or 5 runs, just not the handful of max level and expensive ones Max listed.

Also, the prices you listed are not only the highest ratings for all of those augmentations, but are the cost for paying full price and going directly from having nothing to full rating.  So unless your GM decides your sammy must simply throw all his old 'ware into a box and throw it into the ocean, you won't be paying that whole price at once.

I am sorry it would take a long time to buy the maximum boost to your abilities from nothing. /sarcasm

[All4BigGuns]

You can't upgrade implants, you can only have them removed and have the new one installed. This means that you still have to pay full price for the new implant (at best the old one's trade-in--if such is allowed by the GM--will cover the surgery cost).

Wired Reflexes rating 3 is only really feasible as an upgrade in Delta due to the massive Essence cost. Using SR3 prices, one could get Muscle Toner rating 4, Suprathyroid Gland and Synaptic Accelerator (Booster now) rating 2 for less than what Wired Reflexes rating 3 costs in Delta grade in the new edition (the amount left is 84k).