[ZombieAcePilot]

I think errata will support the splitting of penalties to enemy defense test just as it splits the die pool for attack (penalty to defense is like recoil in that it is a function of number of rounds fired). That said, my problem with the post was that it said things like full auto could not be used to make multiple attacks without using suppressive fire or dual wielding. It's just blatant crap pulled out of his ass. It says right in the text that, "Full-auto weapons can take advantage of the Multiple Attacks Free Action to fire at multiple targets with the same burst." Its clear that you can do it. It does not say it requires dual wielding. It actually says you can do it with the same burst. The poster's assertion that a long burst had to be slit into two shorts bursts is also dead wrong. While it could be divided that way, the rules for multiple attack actions is a number of target equal to half skill or less.

In fact, the term short burst isn't even a SR5 term! Stop using mechanics from SR4 to try and fix SR5! Its not broken, it is clear and well explained.

Things you could ask to be more clear are:
Defense penalties: if/how they are split
Do targets need to be standing next to each other to hit with a multiple attack action?
Does this change based on using burst vs dual wielding?

And to be honest, I think the answer to how defense penalties are split is obvious. The last two are something any GM should be able to adjudicate with ease. It would be nice for something more official to come out, but I could play just fine without them ever issuing anything official on the matter.

[Xenon]

So you can use simple BF at multiple targets at long range then? Because it does only limit SA-Burst and Long-BF to sort and medium?

And 6 bullet FA and 10 bullet FA does not need to hit targets in a cone because only 20 bullet Suppressive Fire is limited to a cone?

The simple and complex actions are clear. You can only hit multiple targets with SA-Burst and Long-burst and Suppressive Fire.

They are also cleat that you can hit multiple targets if you dual wield SS, SA, BF or FA weapons.

No where does it say you can use a single weapon to fire at multiple people using a simple 6 bullet attack Action.
Or a complex 10 bullet attack Action. It say you can use FA to attack multiple targets. And you can. With dual wield. And With Suppressive Fire.

No where does it say you can attack multiple targets with a single weapon when you use a simple 3 bullet burst fire attack Action. It say you can use BF to attack multiple targets. And you can. With dual wield. And with Long-BF.

@Phone atm

[Xenon]

It is well defined what Burst Fire is (3 bullets full auto each time you press the trigger). Both in SR5 and in real life. I have not looked how they defined it in SR4...

It is well defined that Long-Burst is (using a weapon in BF mode, tapping the trigger twice). Both in SR5 and in real life.

It is well defined that you can attack multiple targets with a long Burst. The number of targets is up to debate, but because the nature of how BF work (3 bullets, aim for next target, another 3 bullets) as well as no mentioning about targets need to stand next to each other (long Burst is not full auto spray and pray). Sometimes it is ok to use common sense.

SR5 have one set of rules for SS, SA and BF. There is no mentioning that you can use them for multiple attacks. Unless you dual wield.

SR5 have one set of rules for SA-burst and Long-burst. For the two attacks they sort state you can attack multiple targets while not dual wielding. They explicit state targets need to be at short or medium range.

SR5 also have a set of rules for simple FA and complex FA. Again nothing about that you can use it for multiple attacks. Unless you dual wield.

It is not crap.


Where did I type short burst?

In SR5 There are burst and long Burst. One is a simple action, the other is a complex action where you tap the trigger twice for two bursts. Both are used when the weapon is in BF mode.

[ZombieAcePilot]

Actually, it says this (emphasis mine):

"Full-auto weapons can take advantage of the Multiple Attacks Free Action to fire at multiple targets with the same burst."

Try and say the same sentence after replacing the words weapons with weapon. Notice how it sounds wrong? That's because the word weapons is referring to a class of things. It isn't saying you need two, that would be worded like this, "A user firing two or more full auto weapons (not weapon, that would sound retarded) can take advantage of the Multiple Attacks Free Action to fire at multiple targets."

So here is what it actually means, any weapon classified as full auto can make a multiple attack action to target multiple people with one burst. If this isn't clear, go consult an English professor.

And to answer your second post, pg 179

"Semi-Automatic bursts can take advantage of the Multiple Attacks Free Action to fire at multiple targets with the same burst."
"Burst Fire weapons can take advantage of the Multiple Attacks Free Action to fire at multiple targets with the same burst. "
"Long Burst weapons can take advantage of the Multiple Attacks Free Action to fire at multiple targets with the same burst."
"Full-auto weapons can take advantage of the Multiple Attacks Free Action to fire at multiple targets with the same burst."

Sooo yeah. You are wrong. It clearly states all modes of fire other than single shot can be used to make a multiple attack with the same burst. Right in the section called modes of fire. Odd finding information about modes of fire in the section labeled modes of fire. I guess my selective reading just isn't as up to par as yours.

[Xenon]

IF we are supposed to attack multiple targets with a 6 or 10 bullet FA then the rule at p.164(? Going by memory now) need to be updated similar to the pass on SA burst and long Burst. To first of all explicit state that you can do it (if we now are in the first place), but also what limitations we have. Such as targets need to be at short or medium range. That targets need to be in a frontal cone. How big the cone is. Dodge pool for defenders. Friendly fire.

.... but since this rule is not there; why do you assume it should be possible?


But if we ARE supposed to use Suppressive Fire (or 6/10 bullet single target FA on two targets using dual wield) when attacking multiple targets when we use FA mode then the rule as written make perfect sense.

Even the rule on p.178 (again free from memory here) make sense, but could use a less ambiguous wording. As written this basically just say you can take the free action. Nothing about using a single weapon. Dual wield. Medium range.cone attack....

I don't find it impossible that you can take FA and spray an area. But it is not logic to assume you can use FA and hand pick 3-4 targets with it. Full auto is uncontrolled spray and pray. Friends and foe. Full Auto is a cone attack.

...and we already have a well defined FA cone attack. Area is well defined. Defense roll is well defined. It is called Suppressive Fire.

It's all there.  As SR5 rules.

Just take about a week to figure it out (and might still have it wrong). Lol.




Now.  If we look at how full auto works in real life. It is very easy to hit a target at 100-200m with a single shot from an assault rifle. It is possible to land 2 or 3 out of a 3 bullet burst, but you need to aim low.  The 3rd bullet will hit very high. 6 rounds of full auto is spray and pray towards the general direction of your target. You will hit with the first bullets but the rest will really only hit by chance. In a panic situation it is very easy to just squeeze the trigger and waste the entire clip, hitting nothing (reason why m16 during Vietnam was given a 3 bullet burst fire mode).

Light machine guns are used to suppress opponents. Long controlled burst. Loud.  Tracer rounds. scary. Force opponents to take cover.

I think SR5 mimic this very well.

[Xenon]

Hate type on phone. ...

If p179 state you can use simple action BF, simple action FA and complex action FA then p.168 lack the rules to do it.

If p.168 state you can only use complex action SA-Burst and complex action Long burst. Then p.176 need to be updated.

Until we get actual rules how to attack multiple targets with BF, simple FA and complex FA I think we should use the rules of do have (that make sense to boot).

But in any case.  A clarification is in order. for sure.

[ZombieAcePilot]

There are specific rules for area with suppressive fire because there is no limit to number of targets, even a max of 1 bullet per person (I realize it is possible to hit more than one person per shot via penetration IRL). Fletchette has specific rules on range and space because you are using the spread of a single round to hit a person. Multiple attacks does not have any of these stipulations. This means you can split your melee attacks between multiple people within your running movement rate. So if no one successfully intercepted you, you could run down a hall, chopping people in half as you went up to a number of times equal to half your skill.

How I advocate for common sense. Spreading a single burst would likely require targets very close together. As a GM I would probably allow a bigger gap by wasting bullets into empty space, thus reducing the defense modifier of the attack.

You say things like, "Full auto is spray and pray". Thanks for your opinion. Now get it out of the rules. The rules state it is possible. Your not liking the lack of restraints on the rules doesn't invalidate them. Nor does the fact that you found mention of the same action somewhere else that didn't mention the rules on 179. But I'll use an analogy to make that more clear.

Zero is a lack of rules. My examples are plus 1. Your examples that contradict mine are minus 1. Zero plus one is one. But where is my minus 1 you say? Well, you have provided no evidence from the book that contradict mine. Your examples don't negate or contradict mine. Yes, you can dual wield full auto weapons. That doesn't negate using a single burst to make a multiple attack. Nor does your mention of saying, "well you can use the free action, but that isn't the same as actually making an attack." The book is surely full of other places where it recommends being able to use a free action to do nothing.

So, again, not liking the rules doesn't change them. Its one thing to say what you would do at your table, or suggest house rules.. but you are misrepresenting the rules. People come to these threads looking for clarification of rules. If you intend to post house rules you need to be clear that they are house rules.

Now, would I support someone saying they should be able to split their full auto attack against people in a full 360? No. Is that currently legal in the rules? Yes.

[Xenon]

OK, back at the computer now.

Actually, it says this (emphasis mine):

"Full-auto weapons can take advantage of the Multiple Attacks Free Action to fire at multiple targets with the same burst."

Try and say the same sentence after replacing the words weapons with weapon. Notice how it sounds wrong? That's because the word weapons is referring to a class of things. It isn't saying you need two, that would be worded like this, "A user firing two or more full auto weapons (not weapon, that would sound retarded) can take advantage of the Multiple Attacks Free Action to fire at multiple targets."

Yes.
I very much agree. Just reading that sentence it sound as if you can spray a BF on multiple targets (or a simple FA or a complex FA). But back at p.163 there are no rules to support it. If this was the intent, then we are missing rules at back at p.163.

(Rules such as "Targets of a split BF have to be at short or medium range", "Targets of a spray FA attack need to be in a frontal cone" etc. We also need rules for defense modifiers when using 6 and 10 bullet FA spray. And how you split the attacks. Do the potentially up to five different targets of a single 3 bullet BF need to stay very close or not. Again - Such rules do exist for SA-Burst and Long-Burst when attacking multiple targets and from a real life perspective it no sense that you can attack up to skill/2 targets when you don't have enough bullets. I think common sense is OK to use. And from a real life perspective it does not make sense that you can split a 3-bullet burst to hit multiple targets, either. And if you want to spray and pray with FA against multiple targets it would be mostly a more or less uncontrolled cone attack that would hit both friends and foe alike - very much like the suppressive fire rule that already exit).

So p.165 might be correct and does not miss any rules at all simply because you are not supposed to use a single BF weapon to attack multiple targets at once. And if you use a Long Burst then no problem. There are rules at p.165 that cover this already.

IF we assume for a second that p.165 is correct and does not miss any rules and that you are not supposed to split a BF on multiple targets. Is there ANY way to read p.178 that still make sense?
- Or do they 100% contradict each other?

COULD the "same burst" mean the "same burst action"??

Bear with me....
IF you dual wield and want to attack two different targets you would use the Fire Semi-Auto, Single-Shot, Burst Fire or Full-Auto Simple Action together with the Multiple Attack Free Action to attack two individual targets.

The same Fire Semi-Auto, Single-Shot, Burst Fire or Full-Auto Simple Action.

In this context could "Burst Fire weapons can take advantage of the Multiple Attacks Free Action to fire at multiple targets with the same burst" maybe be read as being part of one single burst attack action...?




IF NOT then I can't see any other solution than that
1: Rules on p.178 are wrong
2: Or rules on p.163 are wrong (or at least missing information; except for SA-burst and Long Burst that is).

In any case we need clarification.

Until then we can either assume that p.165 is correct and use the rules that actually are written there - and dismiss rules at p.178 until we get clarification
OR we can assume that p.178 is correct, but then we have to make up all the rules for splitting BF, simple FA and complex FA against multiple targets....

In that case i would rather use the rules at p.168 (as they also make more sense from a real life perspective and i don't have to guess any rules at all).

[Ryo]

I see no reason to split the defense penalty between targets. It doesn't tell you to do it, so the logical assumption is that they all suffer the same penalty, and it's not like you're dividing the DV between targets either.

[Xenon]

There are specific rules for area with suppressive fire because there is no limit to number of targets, even a max of 1 bullet per person (I realize it is possible to hit more than one person per shot via penetration IRL). Fletchette has specific rules on range and space because you are using the spread of a single round to hit a person.

Agreed.

Multiple attacks does not have any of these stipulations. This means you can split your melee attacks between multiple people within your running movement rate. So if no one successfully intercepted you, you could run down a hall, chopping people in half as you went up to a number of times equal to half your skill.

Multiple Attacks put one limit which is that there can be no more than skill/2 targets.
The attack action it is combined with might or might not have have other limitations.

You can also not run and attack up to skill/2 targets as running take up a free action of it's own.
But you can run and do one charge attack on one single target.
If you want to attack multiple targets with melee you can only be considered stationary or walking.

The multiple attack is also one individual attack per target. For throwing weapons it is one individual knife up to maximum number of ready knives or maximum skill/2 whichever. For melee weapons it is one individual swing per target. For firearms it is pulling the trigger once per target. You can not use the free action to attack one of the targets more than once.

How I advocate for common sense. Spreading a single burst would likely require targets very close together. As a GM I would probably allow a bigger gap by wasting bullets into empty space, thus reducing the defense modifier of the attack.

Yes, but now you are making up rules that are not in p.165
If we are allowed to split a BF then we need to be provided explicit rules to cover this.

On p.165 there are rules that cover attacking multiple targets if you use SA-burst or Long Burst
I am not yet convinced we are allowed to use any other attack action for attacking multiple targets.
If the only two attacks we can use on multiple targets are SA-Burst and Long Burst then it is very logic that the Long BF (which is 2 individual BFs) will be one individual BF at each target. There is no need for the targets to stay close since a non-wired person have up to 3 seconds to land the second burst on the second target. But both targets need to be at short or medium range. This is well defined at p.165. No need to make up rules along the way. Just use the rules as written and some common sense.

You say things like, "Full auto is spray and pray".

Well - In real life it is. Not everyone here have used a real life assault rifle. I knew providing real life insight might backfire but common sense is not something one should despite all the times.

Also common sense that you can not aim and pull the trigger against more individual targets than you can fire in the action (like doing a SA-Burst against 4+ targets just because you have 7+ skill). According to the Multiple Attack rule this is actually possible - but as GMs we know better. Right?

The rules state it is possible.

If they do (and I agree that it does), then we miss rules at p.165 and need clarification.
Or p.178 is wrong and should be altered - and we need clarification.
If it can be read as it is possible if you dual wield then everything actually falls into place.

Until we get clarification I really really want to read the rules as both p.165 and p.178 are correct.
The only way I can do that is if p.178 actually mean that we only can use the multiple attack to attack two targets with simple action BF using dual wield. It looks like we really need someone to clarify all this though

Your not liking the lack of restraints on the rules doesn't invalidate them. Nor does the fact that you found mention of the same action somewhere else that didn't mention the rules on 179. But I'll use an analogy to make that more clear.

It does not invalidate them. But if p.178 mean what both you and me think it does then we DO need more clarification on how to attack multiple targets at p.165
Since spraying a single BF over multiple targets is no longer a case where you aim at one target and pull the trigger but more a you move your weapon very fast from one side to the other while pressing the trigger once. Spraying 3 bullets. In a frontal cone.

How wide can the frontal cone be? How far away do targets need to stay. Is there a chance other targets in the cone can be hit. What will their defense roll be. etc. etc.

This is not explained. Or even hinted on except on p.178 that state BF can be used against multiple targets (maybe while you dual wield two BF weapons).  Or maybe they forgot to update p.165 with rules how to split a BF on multiple targets (not very likely). Or maybe p.178 is wrong (more likely).

... that contradict mine...

I will say it again
I think you are right about how you read p.178

But

• if you are right about how you read p.178 then we lack rules on p.165 and need clarification
• And if you are wrong about how you read p.178 (or rather if the rule on p.178 is worded wrong) then everything on p.165 make sense

So, again, not liking the rules doesn't change them. Its one thing to say what you would do at your table, or suggest house rules.. but you are misrepresenting the rules. People come to these threads looking for clarification of rules. If you intend to post house rules you need to be clear that they are house rules.

Now, would I support someone saying they should be able to split their full auto attack against people in a full 360? No. Is that currently legal in the rules? Yes.

OK. That actually make sense.

I made this thread because the topic pop up very often and there does not seem to be one correct answer to the question:
"Can I use a BF to attack multiple targets and if so what rules apply to that"
According to p.178 you can
According to p.165 there are no rules that you can apply and you have to house rule them all

And this is basically what Michael Chandra said all the time (bottom on page 1)


Thing is p.165 as written make a lot of sense. Common sense.
So much that I really want to challenge p.178

P.178 does not make sense. Splitting a BF over up to skill/2 different targets that does not even have stand close to each other does not make sense.
unless we are all reading it wrong.
unless p.178 actually talk about using a BF while you dual wield or using two individual BFs when splitting up a Long BF or something


The point of this thread is to have a discussion like we are having right now (I just want to understand this myself really. Spend hours reading p.165 and p.178 already). And to keep all the discussion in one thread. That way I can just point them here where everyone can read everything gathered at one place - instead of replying the same thing over and over in individual threads spread over the forum.

I can (and will) rephrase my earlier posts and make it more clear what is actually supported rules and what is common sense.

[Xenon]

Multiple Attacks p.196
Characters sometimes want to really put on the hurting in a single Action Phase and can choose to attack more than once in a single Action Phase] by using the Multiple Attacks Free Action. This action represents both attacking multiple times from a single melee weapon and attacking with two different weapons (firearms or melee). The attacker’s dice pool is calculated with all modifiers (Wound, Environmental, Situational, and the full recoil of all attacks if it’s a ranged attack) and then split as evenly as possible between all attacks, and each attack is handled separately. (Keep in mind as the dice pool gets smaller the chances of a glitch rise.) Edge spent on this test adds into the pool before it is divided. The total number of attacks you can make in a single Action Phase is limited to one-half the attacker’s Combat Skill.

According to this rule you can only take multiple attack free action if you use a single melee weapon or dual wield firearm or melee. According to this rule you should not be able to take the multiple free action if you only use one firearm. This contradict the rules about SA-Burst and Long burst on p.165 as well as Throwing weapons on p.166 and the sentence we talk about on p.178

[Michael Chandra]

Which is exactly why we've submitted questions and remarks on it so it gets corrected.

[ZombieAcePilot]

That is the heart of it. We have rules that say we can, but not how. That said, they gave us charts we can use to extrapolate how it could be done. Recoil and defense penalties are equal before compensation and recoil buildup. Recoil is based on the number of bullets fired at a target. Thus 2 bullets is a -1 defense penalty (this is further spelled out in the "Not Enough Bullets?" sidebar).

So lets say we do a long burst multiple attack and split it into two burst of 3. Each target is at -2 defense, just as if you'd used a single burst action. Easy enough to figure out. But why not give the full -5 to both you say? If you had used two guns and done one burst each they would both be at -5! Yes, except now we have the potential for off hand penalties, a second gun in play, more ammo being expended, etc. Why would anyone dual wield if you could do the same thing with less investment with single gun? But the recoil modifiers, you say. Well, the price of 5-10 karma and some nuyen wasn't a very steep cost to be flat out better. The recoil mods keep it from becoming a full auto dual SMG fest. Dual Wielding is still a better option when you compare doing two bursts to one split long burst. The recoil is the same for both, but the SMG wielder inflicts over twice the penalty on his targets.

To me this seems like a balanced fix until we get official errata on the subject.

[Xenon]

How about this:



P.179 State that you can use BF weapons to fire at multiple targets with the same burst, Long Burst weapons to fire at multiple targets with the same burst. Full auto weapons to fire at multiple targets with the same burst.
P.179 Also state that you can use suppressive fire for a combination of controlled and fully automatic bursts focused over a narrow area and directed at anything that moves. Suppressive fire is explained in detail, but it does not actually state which weapons that can use it (only that it cost 20 bullets over the cause of a full combat turn).
P.165/167 State that you can dual wield SS, SA, BF, Long BF, simple FA and complex FA to do multiple attacks.
P.165/167 State that you can use a single firearm for a SA burst or a Long Burst to attack multiple targets within Short or Medium range (but it does not state that you can use a single firearm in BF, simple FA or complex FA to fire at multiple targets)
P.164 State that you can do multiple attacks when combined with Fire Weapon Action, Throw Weapon Action, Melee Attack Action, Reckless Spellcasting, or Cast Spell Action.
P.196 State that you can take Multiple Attacks with a single melee weapon and when dual wielding firearms or melee (but it does not state that you can use a single firearm or throwing weapons to take the multiple attacks free action).
P.196 Also state you are limited to weapon skill / 2 targets.


There are a lot of rules that directly contradict each other or state one thing but is never explained further.
We have asked for clarification and are currently waiting response.


Until we get an official response there are at least three ways you can make the above rules work.

1) Consider p.179 correct and you can attack multiple targets with SA-Burst, BF, Long Burst, simple FA and complex FA and with Suppressive Fire p.179. This mean you will consider that p.196 is wrong or at least not a complete list of all actions that can take the Multiple Attacks action. It also mean you need to house rule how the various bursts are split up. Will there be bullets between targets. Do targets need to stand close. Are you spraying a cone similar to suppressive fire, if so what size. Can you hit targets at long range. What happens when you use a 3 bullet burst and have an automatics skill of 7+ and - according to P.196 - are allowed to hit 4 targets. etc.
Suggested house rules
1a) All targets need to be within short or medium range for the weapon you use.
1b) All targets need to stand next to each other and the total area does not cover more than a 45 degree frontal cone.
1c) Limit number of targets to [number of bullets in the burst] as an additional wireless bonus if you have smartlink (no stray bullets), [number of bullets] / 2 if no smartlink (round up, symbolizing stray bullet between targets) and [weapon skill] / 2 (round up) - whichever is smallest.
1d) [Number of bullets per target] = [Number of bullets in the burst] divided as even as possible on [Number of Targets] if you have smartlink or [Number of bullets in the burst] / (2 * [number of targets]) if no smartlink (round down).
1e) Negative defense modification is equal to to [Number of bullets per target] -1
1f) Suppressive Fire can only be done in FA mode


2) Consider p.165/167 correct and that you can only attack multiple targets with SA-Burst and Long Burst on targets within short or medium range and with Suppressive Fire p.179. This mean you will consider that p.179 is wrong or is talking about attacks while dual wielding and that p.196 is wrong or at least not complete list of all actions that can take the Multiple Attacks action.
Suggested house rules
2a) Long Burst is two individual BF attacks that you aim at two individual targets.
2b) SA Burst is 3 individual SA attacks that you can aim at two or three individual targets.
2c) Suppressive Fire can only be done in FA mode


3 Consider p.196 correct and you can only take the Multiple Attacks action with a single melee weapon or dual wielding firearms or melee weapons. This mean you will consider that p.165/p.167 are wrong when it comes to SA-Burst and Long Burst as well as p.179 is wrong or is talking about attacks while dual wielding. The only action that let you hurt more than one target with a single firearm is Suppressive fire p.179
Suggested house rules
3a) Suppressive Fire can only be done in FA mode

[Arioch]

Did we ever get clarification on this?

If I full auto burst my assault rifle at a group of 3 people do I just reduce dice for uncompensated recoil, split my dice pool into 3, they all take the same -9 penalty, and I use up 10 bullets?

This came up in a game session tonight and just trying to get a better handle on it moving forward.